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Not sure where this "rule" comes from, but many many sources would argue that a WS who truly wants to move from being a destroyer to a healer would take up the task of trying to help heal their BS no matter what -- no matter R or D. That's known as the naugahyde remorse vs. real remorse conundrum. Real remorse seeks to make it right. Period. Full stop. Even after divorce.

I disagree with this.

First, if you could heal your spouse through your actions I would have healed mine.

It doesn't matter if it's R or D, all you can do as a WS is create an enviroment and conditions that they can heal in. If you divorce, there is nothing you can do as there is no environment. And, if there is a divorce, there is no obligation to do anything other than be decent to them moving forward.

There is no doubt H is in a lot of pain, but he has been abusive, physically and mentally. He is not capable of doing anything at this point other than take it out on her. A person can only take so much of that regardless of remorse.

For example - I am remorseful even today over my actions regardless of my husbands actions. That doesn't mean I have to take anything he dishes out or I am not remorseful. That's not the way it works. A healed WS, BS, person has boundaries intended to protect ones own mental health. That has to come first, no matter what the situation.

As move in day approached, I found myself feeling worse and worse. I stupidly asked him “This is really it. It’s really over.” And it set him off. I had no control over my tongue (my fault). I found myself, once again, going off because I felt used.

IAT, I think this is an important aspect of your dynamic with him that needs to be clarified. Is this how it usually goes? Does he say something you don't like or something hurtful and you go off on him? Are you matching his anger with your own? Are these mutual fights where you clap back when he goes off on you?

IAT, I would like to say. I am sorry.

I realized that I am projecting my anger towards you, because you sounded like the person that destroyed my life. I loved a man, an ex-husband of a vixen who brutally destroyed him to a point of suicide.

She had used those same patterns you used. "It is not my business that his son is not his, he should have been a better guy than my APs so that I wouldn't cheated on him. It is his fault that things turn this way."

This wh*** cheated on her husband with more than 9 long affairs in the span of 23 years. And his Jr, that he was proud of, turned out wasn't his.

I lost my man to a narcissistic bi***.

I shouldn't have lost my cool, sorry again. I do that a lot when I see WW that act a bit similar...

I disagree with this.

Well, okay, but when Linda MacDonald writes explicitly about a betrayer moving from being a destroyer to a healer (her terms) she's talking about the betrayer taking up the mantle of being a healer.

"The more you resist participating in the hurt spouse's healing process, the longer it will take."

"rebuilders grieve over their partners' sorrows without allowing their own self pity to distract them."

"Successful rebuilders seek to put more energy into healing the pain of the betrayed than in punishing themselves for their indiscretions."

So I think there's an odd false dichotomy to this "you heal you, I heal me" stuff.

There is no doubt H is in a lot of pain, but he has been abusive, physically and mentally. He is not capable of doing anything at this point other than take it out on her. A person can only take so much of that regardless of remorse.

This I didn't know. As you know, as a physically imposing man myself, who saw a man abuse my mother, I have zero tolerance for physical abuse.

Verbal abuse is another deal breaker for me, though a lot of the things my WW has said to me since D-Day would qualify as verbal abuse.

Mental abuse is somewhat harder to define, but I'll take your word for it (most of us would agree that infidelity and gaslighting are mental abuse writ large).

I’m just struggling. I don’t want to say goodbye. I know i lost him the day I chose to cheat. I still wanted a chance, even knowing I don’t deserve it. I want to be thankful for the sex, I just can’t cut off the emotions from it and all it did was make me feel worse. I could and should have said no because I’m the one that can’t cut off the emotions. I’m just frustrated because I know he knew I couldn’t. Ultimately it was still my decision and I didn’t say no.

I will just say this. Recently you posted that Hallmark said he was going to divorce you and you were going to be the ex wife who just will come over and give BJ's on demand.

I do not think you are wrong at all for feeling hurt that you could not just up your wife game, give him what he wanted and needed, and not making any progress.

The expectation was wrong. So many times people think they can fix this by only addressing the relationship. Being a better wife or husband moving forward. It can help in recreating a connection if the BS is open to it. This is not creating a connection, this is not healing him. It would be getting better if that was the case.

I hate you are both hurting. I don't think Hallmack or you are terrible people. I think that he needs new tools that he doesn't know how to acquire. I think that you are giving into desperation and that's turning him off more. I think sometimes when we stay on our stomachs groveling it's a reminder of how weak and sick we look. People who have their own spark, who love and respect themselves command it from others and give it to others. It's the same reason the pick me dance doesn't work when the BS applies it.

He also is stuck in the feelings that you emasculated him. It's common to feel that way as the BS no matter what the gender. He needs to come to the realization he owns his own masculinity and your actions are not a reflection of him or his masculinity. I don't know how he can reclaim that but using you as a sex toy who does anything he wants is not restoring that for him.

I am sorry, I do know how low this all feels. And, I know how it can be feeling like you are never going to surpass it. I definitely feel that way sometimes. BUT at the same time for a lot of us there is some trend upward. Underlying progress. What you guys are doing is more spiraling and staying generally in the same place. That tells you what you all are doing is not working at all. That's why I really wish both of you had professional support. I wish both of you the very best. Truly.

So I think there's an odd false dichotomy to this "you heal you, I heal me" stuff.

What I take from MacDonald is that she is encouraging the WS to lead the BS to water, but I think the difference is she not implying that through quantitative or qualitative actions, the WS can somehow make the BS drink.

Thumos,

I have read the book many times.

I do believe a WS has the onus to be consistent and show how much they want to be with the BS. They also must work to be a safe spouse and make amends anywhere they can. I believe I know the successful rebuilder stuff backwards and forwards.

But at the end of the day, you can't do that with every BS. Not every marriage is meant to be saved.

But for the record, I was disagreeing with your guage about the remorse stuff. Not what a WS should or shouldn't do.

And, you will never get to a healthy relationship with two unhealthy people.

They are classically codependant. Everything is high emotions based on the other person's actions. It's causing the spiral they are experiencing. They both have to learn boundaries or nothing IAT does will ever become effective.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:19 PM, June 2nd (Wednesday)]

What I take from MacDonald is that she is encouraging the WS to lead the BS to water, but I think the difference is she not implying that through quantitative or qualitative actions, the WS can somehow make the BS drink.

100% True. You said it better than I did.

IAT, I don't know what did you applied in this 2 years, but pet me tell you this.

A video of an affair sexual act is ultimate disrespect for a man. Unfortunately, they are extremely territorial living beings and seeing that is like, 'game over' for most men.

So my 2 cents... Maybe you wouldn't even look at this.

Usually Fixing or repairing things doesn't work. It brings nostalgia, comparison of old vs new and resentment that is accumulating due to disappointment. Every aproach to fixing repairing will be countered with mourning feelings destroying the healed part.

Nostalgia> trying> disappointment> mourning>resentment.

Pretty much it is a brutal cycle.

Reconciliation however takes establishing a new relationship where both couples discover new grounds in this relationship. This will diminish the disrespect and power of OM and the affair over the relationship.

After the foundation is settled, you slowly go through the wreckage of the old relationship and see what you can save little by little.

At this point though, it seems a bit too late, because you are responding to his resentment with your own type of resentment back at him.

PTSD of the affair is a serious condition that usually creates 3 main problems. disgust, estrangement, emasculation.

Since you are having sex now disgust seems to be out of the picture.

However probably estrangement and emasculation is still on the table it seems. I have avarage number as how much times a guy takes to get over things.

Disgust 6-8 months

Anger 1-1.5 years

Estrangement 2-2.5 years

Emasculation 1-3 years

Total recovery 2-5 years

These are averages, think about peculiar case that goes for years...

It seems like you guys led these 2 years based on insticts and never truly got help. I mean even now with the zoom thing finding a good counsellor and an environment is really hard anyways.

It sounds like you are in dire need of love affection and acknowledgement under a safe partner, and you seem dedicated to move on to get these. Ball is in the hands of your husband. If I could I would tell him to stop this ghost hunt and living in the limbo kinda stuff. It seems like he is comfortable with this situation and entered into psychological moratorium.

There are many small fixes that helps BSs to follow a certain path and create a stsble ground for both. However, it seems like he doesn't know what he wants.

Just think about my new grounds thing though. A BS could try to sexually reclaim their partner, but usually it is a sad ending most of the time apart from the pleasure. So finding new grounds is ever so fruitous than covering the old rebound.

His bluff on the divorce or his yelling and blaming could be outcries on evening the scale. Because it is quite uneven and every BS would have these conversations in their mind over and over and try to have that in real life with you. But it never goes the way he imagined and he gets angry yada yada... You get my point.

PTSD he's suffering and him trying to gather himself usually the parts that makes him this grumpy. Because grumpy looks better than miserable. Maybe he also fears losing you too. You never know. But you guys need to stop your confrontations especially destructive habits on arguments.

Have you ever tried giving in once? Just once? And asking him to give in once?

Anyways as you told I only read couple of months of your past. What could I know right? Apart from some general stuff. Anyways I hope you will heal well.

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:30 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

Selithe you have a pm.

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:30 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

IAT - your husband might be moving out but he hasn’t filed for divorce. Thus, there is still a possibility of R. You need to give him time. From everything I’ve read on SI, I’m in the camp that you need to do everything in your power to show your husband that you want him, the marriage, and your family.

By moving out your husband is taking back some of his agency. His emotions should now regulate somewhat. Because you said you want to R and keep the marriage, if I were you I would do everything you can to use actions to show it. It makes it a bit more difficult because he will not be physically located with you, but it can be done - that is if you’re up for it and are able to take the constant rejection that you will receive.

Successful R situations on SI usually occur with an utterly remorseful WW who relentlessly fights for her marriage. It’s been said a hundred times - it’s not over until the divorce papers are signed. There are plenty of WW on here who can give you advice on how to do this.

I would feel that way too, IAT. In fact, I did feel that way when we almost divorced.

I think it's fine for you to express your feelings about this to him while still maintaining the boundaries you need in order to stay sane in the situation.

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:31 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

Successful R situations on SI usually occur with an utterly remorseful WW who relentlessly fights for her marriage. It’s been said a hundred times - it’s not over until the divorce papers are signed. There are plenty of WW on here who can give you advice on how to do this.

This remorseful WW advises you that divorce can be the saner, healthier option for both partners.

Ugh... I don't know how many times I've read posts from BH on WW threads recommending that they turn themselves into sexual vending machines in order to pacify the BH's "emasculation" injuries, and yet here we are.

Predictably, it doesn't work and the WW is demeaned by it, treated as an object and left feeling humiliated. Which is probably the point, really, because I don't believe this kind of advise is always given in the best interests of the WW.

For people who haven't been following along, this isn't the extent of what's going on in this situation. While it's every BS's absolute right to want a divorce and to get one, that's not what this is. This has been a systematic, deliberate humiliation of the WW. First, the demands for separation/divorce with the threat of getting a new girlfriend in tandem with entreaties that the WW still offer sexual favors even after that new girlfriend is lined up. The refusal to see the children unless it's in the WW's home or to set a schedule so the kids would know when Daddy would be around. The mindgames previous to this whereby the WW was expected to literally BEG during sex.

Believe me, I like Hallmack. I was in the front row of people who felt like he got an especially raw deal and that he should move directly to divorce. But that's not what he wanted, obviously. He wanted an opportunity to fix the marriage... but what has he done to achieve healing in the past two years? Like it or not, agree with it or not, we BS have our own work to do in order to heal from the injury we've sustained. It's hard work. We have to deal with so many things. We have to re-learn to trust our own judgement, to resist the temptation to internalize the acts of our betrayer, to deal with our own ego and our own preconceptions about love, sex, gender biases, and everything else. But it takes work. Healing doesn't just drop into our laps and it is NOT a function of the WS. All the WS can do is fix their own shit and become an acceptable partner.

So no... just being a victim of an infidelity doesn't make a person infallible as the pope. BS's fuck up too sometimes. And two years out, there's no good excuse for verbal abuse anymore or active attempts to humiliate and demean. We are NOT animals. And while it's understandable that in the heat of the JFO phase, manners slip, it is NOT understandable two years later. Two years later it's simply abusive.

So yes.. at this point, I agree with EllieKMas, it is your BH's responsibility to fix himself, so give him time on his own to sort himself out. Have enough self-respect that if he's not actively working on R, refrain from sex and from whatever activities which leave you feeling overly-invested and vulnerable. If and when he makes good on getting a girlfriend, file for D. You did a bad thing, and honestly, I do agree that HM has the absolute right to decide that it's a deal-breaker for him. But he doesn't have the right to be abusive, to play mindgames with you, or to treat you as less than a person. I know you love him. But sometimes love isn't enough, and when it doesn't come with respect, you can be sure that it's not enough.

I absolutely detest the people in this forum that support the idea that the betrayed spouse has free range to manage their pain in whatever way they see fit. It’s not healthy and just keeps the cycle going.

I just want to address this as I feel this idea gets misconstrued quite frequently. I feel that very few people would agree that a BS can manage pain in “whatever way they see fit.” Countless BS have been called out, advised, talked down from ledges when they are lashing out in unhealthy ways. Staff and members both have explicitly mentioned that violence and abuse of any type are not condoned in any way.

On the flip side of that coin, I also believe it quite impossible to ask of someone in pain to always behave politely, rationally, calmly, and sensitively towards the person that caused them such pain. It is impossible to ask someone to behave normally in absolutely abnormal circumstances. It is not impossible to set up boundaries when necessary, although I do understand how difficult it can be engrossed in shame.

I have no idea if HM has been manipulating you. Only he knows the answer to that question. What I do know, is that the two of you have had a toxic dynamic for quite some time. When you talk about the cycle continuing, you both have a part in that. The cycle only stops when someone is willing to stop it.

You say you do not want to give up. I just wonder why you feel that this marriage is worth saving. Loving each other is not enough. The both of you have admitted to losing it with each other. It’s unhealthy and both of you have spiraled in varying degrees and varying times.

Hanging onto this marriage is torture in a way for the both of you. You two have formed a dynamic that is painful to break, but you need to figure out a way to break it. I’m not necessarily telling you that you need to divorce, but I am telling you that you should be apart from each other. You both need to heal on your on. You both need to work on your anger and your resentments towards each other. You can’t keep going forward with each of you holding a score card. No one ever wins.

I’m not sure what you are trying to fight for. I’m not sure you really know either.

CT for the win.

Ugh... I don't know how many times I've read posts from BH on WW threads recommending that they turn themselves into sexual vending machines in order to pacify the BH's "emasculation" injuries, and yet here we are.

Predictably, it doesn't work and the WW is demeaned by it, treated as an object and left feeling humiliated. Which is probably the point, really, because I don't believe this kind of advise is always given in the best interests of the WW.

And then heaven forbid the WW complain about it or get understandably upset. Then she clearly wasn’t doing it right and doesn’t understand the male psychology and needs to be reminded.

I have no idea if HM has been manipulating you. Only he knows the answer to that question.

I would argue that she also knows.

IAT, I’m glad you’re getting some much needed space to clear your head and that the kids are getting some daddy time. Keep pushing for that. Regardless of your marital issues, he still needs to coparent.