SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Once a BS chooses divorce, it is THEIR responsibility to fix themselves and deal with their pain solo.

Not sure where this "rule" comes from, but many many sources would argue that a WS who truly wants to move from being a destroyer to a healer would take up the task of trying to help heal their BS no matter what -- no matter R or D. That's known as the naugahyde remorse vs. real remorse conundrum. Real remorse seeks to make it right. Period. Full stop. Even after divorce.

In fact there's at least one or two couples who provide reconciliation professional counseling who themselves went through divorce. In the case of one couple, the WW would not stop letting her ex-BH know that she wanted to be there for him over years after divorce. They got back together and remarried.

I also have spoken myself with a couple. The WW and BH divorced, and then the WW came back to him asking for a second chance. They remarried.

So the idea that divorce gives the betrayer an "out" is your opinion. If that's the way you want to play it, great. But that's not how many situations proceed.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:59 AM, June 2nd (Wednesday)]

Unless his present behavior is similar to how he acted prior to the affair, you can basically chalk it up to the conflict he has between his love for you and his family against the hurt and betrayal he feels every day he is with you. He is in between that rock and a hard place and he can't resolve the contradiction to his satisfaction. I think that is why his behavior seems to yo-yo back and forth.

Yes, absolutely spot on, and anyone who had spent any amount of time reading the resources commonly recommended here would understand this phenomenon and would have deep empathy for it. Instead of resenting the victim for reacting in a normal way.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:03 AM, June 2nd (Wednesday)]

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:25 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

hey IAT. During a time where you definitely need to be strong for both yourself and HM, here you are complaining about the fact that he has decided on D. Your main goal should be both of you healing, and not keeping your marriage. If HM divorced you the day he found out you cheated, are you saying it would've been more easier for yourself? Everyone has a different timeline for R. Some people struggle through the 2-5 standard, and other people split up and reconcile later on in life.

That’s just it, Thum. I do want to make it right. I was told I can’t. I was told I should stop worrying about him and his healing. So do I follow his directive or not?

And I'm telling you that's extraordinarily common and very much like the cases I referenced. He probably does feel that way and yet he's torn because he has now had forced on him an existential crisis not of his own making and is being forced to choose between an intact family and a future he never imagined. You can offer compassion and tell him you want to do whatever he wants. You might consider reading an article online about naugahyde remorse vs. real remorse. I'm not saying you're "naugahyde" - I can sense your pain. I'm saying it might help you understand a bit more.

I resent how he has chosen to deal with his pain.

This I really do not get, and frankly it smacks of a distinction without a difference. Go back and read Linda MacDonald's book.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:23 AM, June 2nd (Wednesday)]

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:23 PM, Wednesday, June 2nd]

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:26 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:26 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

Once a BS chooses divorce, it is THEIR responsibility to fix themselves and deal with their pain solo. That’s divorce. I challenge you to find anyone, ws or bs, that would say you still need to heal your spouse one divorce is chosen. It’s not to be mean to my bs or avoid fixing anything.

Nope. It is the BS's responsibility to captain their own healing whether or not divorce is the path they travel.

BS heals BS. WS heals WS. Once both of those happen, then both can work on healing the marriage.

IaT, I've said it before on your threads and will reiterate now. I am not knocking either you or HM, but it seems to me like neither of you have started trying to work on your own healing. You have been trying to 'heal' him by being a sex toy and cooking dinners, and he has not taken any responsibility for his own healing, but instead has been taking out his understandable anger and frustration on you in very abusive ways. You are both broken people and have no idea how to love yourselves in a healthy way, so it isn't surprising that you also have no idea how to love each other in a healthy way either.

You do not owe it to him, no matter what you did, to stay locked into a toxic and abusive situation. YOU cannot start really healing until YOU are in a better situation. IMHO, this marriage is not healthy for you right now. You have to let go of worrying about his healing and start worrying more about your own. You need to start ignoring his noise and start focusing on what you need to do that is best for YOU.

I know you 'caused' his hurt, but he has a responsibility to himself to figure out what he needs to do for himself. You can't do that for him, and you shouldn't even try because you can't control that no matter what you do. And at this point, I feel like you are doing huge damage to yourself trying to 'fix' him and your energy would be much better spent figuring out how to get yourself into a better situation. Divorce sucks, and neither of you necessarily want it, but maybe just maybe, you both NEED it in order to move forward.

I just need it clear cut. If we aren’t R, don’t tell me you love me. Don’t tell me you care. Don’t sleep with me. Don’t tell me you can imagine a life with me. Don’t tell me you miss me. I’m not saying he doesn’t feel those things

Thats just it though, you cant control what he says or does...you can only control YOU. What you do, how you receive this, what you understand, what actions you choose from here...if you need things clear cut then instead of putting that on him to do - you do it. Do what you need to make things “clear cut” for yourself.

He is going through his own process, you both have your own challenges to sort through and your own healing to focus on. Either way, your role here is to do what you can to take control of YOU. Keeping the mentality of helplessness isn’t helping you...he may choose to do X, but you still have a choice in how you respond or how you receive it. He can’t “make you feel” or “make you do” anymore than you can force that upon him.

Additionally, being critical of yourself isn’t helping you build your own self esteem. You deserve your own kindness toward yourself while also showing yourself strength in doing things that better your emotional and mental well-being (i.e. not giving into things you know will cause you emotional distress/confusion/setback in your healing).

You can heal...you’ve been able to heal since dday, divorce or not. Healing is up to you and how you show up for yourself. You can’t be there for him to support him if you can’t do it for you first.

IAT, you are stronger than you think. Right now, you can't see it or feel it because all you have room for right now is the hurt. The hurt you caused HM, the hurt you caused your children, and the hurt you caused on yourself.

Yes, HM does need to find a way to heal himself, but just because you may divorce, doesn't mean you need to stop helping him. He's the father of your kids. You want him to be in a better place emotionally and mentally, no matter if you're standing right next to him or not. He may continue to tell you that it's not your responsibility to help him, and that's his right. However, you can still find ways to help him whether it's directly or indirectly. That doesn't mean though you have to give him yourself if you are not comfortable with it. Your mental health is just as important as his.

You may have mentioned it already, but have you told him what his words mean to you? Not the anger it may stir up, but the confusion. Have you asked him if he's confused because you are also confused?

Thumos

Thank you for explaining my POV, because her view on many things seems ever so polarized, she can't even do one thing non-egocentric. Her behavior says so, her words says so. She doesn't have true remorse, and that is the issue here. She is trying to cloak the pain of her with sex and failed. Do you know why I say this? Because as girls thats what we doooo

When a man that we want to keep, starts to sweep away we offer sexual favors in order to reel him in and bound him emotionally to us. And I see you girl. I see every inch of you. Your pride gets in your way, and you think you know the best. Coming here giving these "rules" on relationships/Reconciliation/Divorces, Who told you these rules? There is no gameplay on these things apart from sitting down and discussing.

Truly, shocked to see what more things she spews out. I mean wow, even I got the chills, can't imagine your BH.

He might be terrible or maybe emotionless. However I am not gonna judge this guy off of your basic explanation. Your bias is soo strong that I could even believe that there is a possibility that this guy is an angel.

I read couple of your past comments I should say you are all over the place, especially acting like you are wronged most of the time. What is this entitlement comes from?

You can't just have everything. If he was thst bad you would have leave him by now. I think you are somewhat evil and you are slowly breaking this man into pieces. Please let this guy go, because probably he is just a good guy stuck at a wrong place. There are many bitches out there ready pick up the pieces, and bring that man back.

Anyways good luck with your recovery I guess.

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:28 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

Selithe...

I am not sure how far you are into your journey but I don't think IAT or her husband are evil or have evil intentions.

I think that the depth of hurt and pain they each carry is massive and they want to shift the burden to their partner. In healthy relationships having your partner carry the emotional load for a little bit it okay...even expected. In unhealthy codependent marriages is a recipe for more hurt and pain.

IAT...edit your post. Calling names is beneath you so stop it.

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 12:26 PM, June 2nd (Wednesday)]

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:28 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:29 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

I’m allowed to be all over the place, so is he.

You are indeed.

IAT, I thought I would take a crack at giving you some insight into the BH mentality. I can't say this is exactly your BH's thought process, and I'm not there with you IRL day to day. I don't know all the precise circumstances.

On the sex, it's hard to explain precisely, but I would say for a BH, sex with a WW is fraught with so many complex issues.

There's the raw attraction we have for our WW's. After all, we didn't cheat and loved our WW's. Unless there was a DB, we were profoundly in lust with our WW's before D-Day. I know I was.

There's the issue of often feeling "out of love" with our WW's. We don't feel the same way we did before D-Day. In a real sense, we get the real experience of "I love you but I'm not in love you" thrust upon us against our will.

There's the terror of seeing a space alien in place of our WW's and then hearing our WW's trying to reassure us that was all just temporary and we can go back to trusting them.

There's the issue of mind movies, which can be re-triggered and intensified by new information or constant triggers (such as finding out about oral sex later, or in my case having to see the AP regularly). I think this has already been explained in some lavish detail here on the wayward forum already, but the mind movies BH's have are lurid and detailed and torturous.

There's the issue of revulsion warring with our love and attraction. Revulsion is a basic moral emotion (edit to add: this isn't my term; it's the scientific term ascribed by the groundbreaking research of Jonathan Haidt and others). It is documented and real. It just is. That doesn't mean we're labelling our WW's as forever "tainted" but it does mean we must grapple with a sense of revulsion over sex acts with the AP. This is also real and I'd be doing no one any favors to minimize it.

There's the issue of seeking comfort from someone we've spent years with and are attracted to. This is at war with everything else -- our fight/flight response and our brains telling us to run, run, run. Our revulsion. Our lust. The mind movies.

We want it and we don't want it. We want D and we want R. There's a sinking feeling in the pit of our stomachs, followed by a rising feeling of hope, followed by a sense of deadness.

Most of all, we want a time machine. It's a real life horror movie, and it doesn't ever seem to stop.

Now put that in the context of your husband's push-pull with you regarding sex and maybe that gives you some additional insight?

Maybe you could try to see the sex you have your BH as a gift rather than from a transactional standpoint.

I don't know if that helps, but I thought I'd offer this perspective. I myself have struggled mightily with the "I want sex, I don't want sex, it means something, it doesn't mean anything" dichotomy. It's no fun at all, and it isn't intentional.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:52 PM, June 2nd (Wednesday)]

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:29 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

You've probably already read this at least once, but it never hurts to read it through thoroughly again:

https://survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/reconciliation/what-every-wayward-spouse-needs-to-know.asp

I don’t want to say goodbye. I know i lost him the day I chose to cheat. I still wanted a chance, even knowing I don’t deserve it. I want to be thankful for the sex, I just can’t cut off the emotions from it and all it did was make me feel worse. I could and should have said no because I’m the one that can’t cut off the emotions. I’m just frustrated because I know he knew I couldn’t. Ultimately it was still my decision and I didn’t say no.

I understand. It's an awful shit show and I'm sorry you're here. My WW have a different but in some way analogous struggle with sex. I don't think it's uncommon at all, so know that this is probably not all that unique to your situation.

The other thing I'll add here, IAT, is that I myself have told my WW I wanted D and I absolutely meant it. I saw an attorney, almost put them on retainer. I started researching all the things I needed to do to live independently and was getting everything lined up. Then ... I just didn't.

I don't know where my WW and I will be six months from now, or even a year from now. Right now we're not getting divorced.

So a BS can say it, mean it completely and even move forward with it. That doesn't mean they want it with every fiber of their being, and it doesn't mean they won't change their minds; after all, they never foresaw this or wanted any of it in the first place.

Just something to bear in mind.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:58 PM, June 2nd (Wednesday)]