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I would argue that she also knows.

Ok, I’ll bite. How does she know?

Waywards are notorious for putting their spin on situations to fit the narrative that works for them. I’m not saying that’s the case, but I’m also not saying it isn’t. We are only getting one side of the story.

Why would it be so hard to believe that he is also struggling and confused himself?

It’s not hard to believe but as CT lays out, there’s also a lot more to what has been going on here that would strongly indicate that yes, he has been manipulative. How is none of that being taken into consideration? Sure that could be 100% out of hurt, but it doesn’t change anything. Also as I said in an earlier post, it is possible for him to be confused and also be using her.

Would you tell a BS that comes here saying they’re being manipulated by a W that only their W knows if they’re being manipulative? Doubtful. I think people do often know when they’re being manipulated.

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:32 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

IaT, I know you're struggling right now. But wallowing in self-pity doesn't service you. Or your kids.

You made mistakes because you're a human being. We all make mistakes. It isn't about that, it's about learning from them and how you apply those lessons going forward. You can do this. You aren't irredeemable and you deserve peace.

Your kids will be okay. I venture to say (as a child from divorced parents) that having two happier parents and households will be entirely better for them than the dynamic that has existed in your house for the last few years. Divorce is not the worst thing a kid can go through. It's gonna be hard, yes; that doesn't mean it can't turn out to be a better life for them and for you and HM too. But if you want to give them that, it starts with you deciding to get better in your own self. No one can do that for you, only you can do it.

Take some time to decide what you want the rest of your life to look like. Show yourself some compassion. And be patient with yourself. This didn't get this way overnight and it's not gonna get fixed overnight either.

I had a long post, but I erased it because I rambled too much. Please read Chamomile, Ellie and Hikingout. I truly believe they have your best interests at heart. I’m sure a lot of other posters do as well, those just stood out to me off the top of my head.

Good luck, you’re going to be ok. Your kids are going to be ok. Stay strong.

The kids are not in harms way. So this “need to protect them” isn’t reality. His pain is with me, not them.

Your kids watch their father walk out the door and ask when they can talk to him and you can't give them an answer. If you don't think that's going to have a lasting effect on them, then you have your head on backwards. Living in a house with fighting parents has an affect on them. Living through a divorce will have an effect on them.

The best way to protect them is to behave like an adult and do what you need to do to get them on a stable, predictable schedule so that they don't pay the price for your screwed up choices.

Gently now, no jugement, just observations:

I want to help him. But he is too hurt by me. I’m the one that ruined him and he can’t trust me to help him. He can’t trust that my love is real.

Yes, you are correct on this. So, what are you going to do about it? He is conflicted inside, that the person he loves is the source of his pain. The person whom he would like to trust, is not trustworthy. THAT is a mindfuck.

If I love him, I need to let him go. I hate admitting that. I don’t want to let him go. But this life is hell for all of us. I can’t keep lashing out in pain and the longer I keep sleeping with him and hearing the niceties, the more I will keep hurting and lashing out at him.

Why are you lashing out at him? Are you lashing out so that it gives him an 'out'? Are you sleeping with him because you want to 'win' him back? Do you see that my last two questions are in conflict with each other?

Basically, it looks like you want, but don't want HM.

I need to give up on us.

Giving up, and letting go are two separate things. One is inward looking, and the other is a outward looking frame of mind. If you need to give anything up, it would be to give up trying to control the outcome. This does not mean you stop putting in the effort to regain trust.

I know it may sound confusing, but an analogy would be a passenger in a car.

The backseat driver would dictate to the driver 'watch out for that car!', 'you should slowed down slower.', 'don't hold your steering wheel so high.', 'Oh! You are not doing what I want, so I give up!'

To let go, is to trust the driver to steer you to your destination. You may engage the driver in conversation to help keep the driver awake if it is a long journey, you may help entertain the kids so that the driver is not distracted.

I need to focus on fixing me.

Absolutely. This is over and above the effort you put in to making yourself safe for your BS.

Just a suggestion, if you feel that you need to lash/vent, come to SI and let it out here. Leaving pent up resentment/frustrations inside will only make the resentment/frustrations grow.

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:34 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

Walkingoneggshellz

I know I shouldn't write in this post but I got crious about something.

IAT, did he got a misdemeanor or felony charge out of that? Because that will effect the custody and the divorce outcome. Got curious about it.

Okay, done with that. Sorry again.

Iamtrash, his record is on him. He alone, is responsible for his actions that day. He confronted you and got physical. He had the opportunity to go somewhere else if he didn't want to be around you. There are a multitude of different ways to deal with you that do not end in that manner.

We are responsible for the actions, inactions and way that we treat people. Its not the other way around. Blaming you for his record is wayward, typical, and not a path towards redemption for that act. It kind of seems, that the affair was a deal breaker, but he needed something more to push him out. Could be why he was using you the way he has. Attempting to make force you to take the final step, because he could not.

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:34 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

I disagree with some of the judgment being heaped on HM.

If posters are going to believe that you can read the situation regarding him using you...then it should also be accepted that you can read the situation when it comes to his safety with children. However, a custody agreement is NOT about protecting the kid from him.

A custody agreement sets clear boundaries and expectations when it comes to the kids. It helps establish stability for everyone.

Mon & Tuesday are with dad

Wed and Thurs with mom.

Or whatever you guys decide. That also gives you and HM time to process feelings, emotions, due therapy, self care, etc without the kids there. It gives you both a break while setting days for each of you to handle parenting responsibilities.

It also doesn't mean that you guys cant be flexible...Dad wants to take them to park on Wed.. if you don't have plans then let them go. Cousin having a birthday party on his time...pick up the kids.

I know because I am there. Having a custody agreement was a saving grace. When things got touchy between us we would revert to the order until things calmed down.

It was a SAVING grace in the early days. No clear boundaries around the schedule caused us to have EVEN MORE toxic interactions.And..it getting one doesn't mean you have to file for divorce. We are still legally married and have a legal custody and child support order.

The healthier I got the better it got...I would call him to say the boys needed a haircut, he would call to say if he could pick up our daughter for 20 mins to take her to dollar tree, the kids face time him ALL THE TIME. Once we got distance and things calmed down it became much easier to separate the jackass husband he was from the great father.

And I started to utilize my time away from them for selfcare...relaxing, reading, exercise, friends. Therapy THERAPY. Journaling.

Just this weekend...my BFFS came over for dinner and a bonfire. THEY STAYED THE ENTIRE WEEKEND. We slept, ate, drank, watched movies. IT was the BEST FORM OF self-care for us all.

I know, I KNOW..this is so hard IAT. But I PROMISE hun if you just put some DISTANCE and boundaries in this relati onship things will become less volatile. The pain will lessen for you both.

A custody order doesn't mean defeat...its a gift for you both to CALM this situation down. I promise. Hugs..be brave today... CHOOSE YOU.

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 7:27 AM, June 3rd (Thursday)]

Dup

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 7:20 AM, June 3rd (Thursday)]

IAT. HM now has a record of DV, which is his to own. You stood at the trial and let him face the music, while ironically, not admitting to your own incidents of DV against him. Perhaps you should measure yourself with the same yardstick. I say this because DV is seen as something that men do to women, but the data shows that it happens close to the same rates either direction. In fact, you have been vient towards M at a rate of about two or three times. Yes, women will often argue that men are bigger and the violence is more serious, but is that the real threshold for taking this seriously? I mean, if I carefully abuse my wife so as not to inflict too much damage, I'm okay? Maybe a new rule of thumb for the magistrates?

Regardless, HM's behaviour in this instance was off side. Was your even more off side? Are you okay getting away with it while he has faced a consequence? My STBXWW physically assaulted me once and her AP twice, while I have never laid a hand on anyone, even though I spend years learning how to kill people and break things. It's just not in me.

I don't really know my point other than to point out the double standard here. Sore point I guess.

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:35 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

On the flip side of that coin, I also believe it quite impossible to ask of someone in pain to always behave politely, rationally, calmly, and sensitively towards the person that caused them such pain. It is impossible to ask someone to behave normally in absolutely abnormal circumstances. It is not impossible to set up boundaries when necessary, although I do understand how difficult it can be engrossed in shame.

I explained this to my H like this.

You gave me a box of broken glass that I have to work through, yet any time I reach into that box of broken glass and react in any way, I'm the bad person. I don't know how to deal with pain and not react to that pain.

I don't know if that explanation helped him, but it also helped me.

I also texted him one day about a lion in a zoo that was being put down. I told him how it was in an abusive situation and lashed out and was convicted based on how he reacted while being abused and was put down. My H got very upset about the story of the lion, couldn't believe that people would mistreat the lion and then put it down because of how it reacted to the mistreatment. I then told him that I was the lion. This was while he was still lying and gaslighting me and then getting mad at me for not dealing well with his manipulations. I told him that he was abusing me and manipulating me, and then standing back and pointing and saying, "She's mean." I told him that he needed to step back and look at the bigger picture why was I "being mean" to him? Because I was being abused, tormented, and manipulated by him and with him choosing to judge me while he was abusing me was just additional mental abuse.

Please let me reiterate that he was still lying and manipulating at this point, and he was still abusing me. I am NOT trying to imply that you are in any way still doing these things, I just wanted to tell you about how I was able to reframe this for my H and help him understand that his actions had reactions. I had to explain to him that you can't throw a rock into a pond and not expect the pond to have ripples.

IAT - can you and your husband separate? And not yet file for divorce? Does your husband still want to work it out? Could you see the kids separately but meet up once a week for therapy? Or agree to not see others but take a break from each other while you both work hard on therapy for yourselves?

I know that many many many here on SI are against MC until there is healing individually. Personally, we are working with an MC that specializes in betrayal trauma (I am the BS) and it is helping us very much. He understands my pain and teaches my WS how to deal with it. We need that person helping explain for me what I need from my WS. He doesn't make my WS feel like a monster. He is actually my WS's IC. But he does explain to him how he has hurt me and what I need from him to feel safe. In our last session he talked to my WS about how to help me when I trigger using an acronym VAR - validate, acknowledge, reassure. My WS usually shuts down when I trigger and this has helped us SO much.

I find some of the SI explanation of "everyone is responsible for their own healing" to be confusing at times. I would explain it like this:

Being cheated on made me feel like I wasn't special to WS.

If that makes me feel like I am not a special human being out in the world, that is for me to fix. That is for me to talk about with my therapist.

Anyway sorry if that is too much a threadjack, but I keep seeing "you heal yourselves" and while I do believe that is true, I do think there is a need for the WS to help the BS when R is on the table.

Maybe you and WH need to have a calm talk about if you guys want to D or R once and for all. And maybe either way there needs to be a time of separation to rebuild.

It is also very important to keep in mind that y'all DO NOT have to reconcile. Getting a divorce is ok. It isn't a failure. But living in turmoil is bad for you all.

IAT

It may be that prissy4lyfe and I are the only ones concerned about your kids, but for god's sake, pull your head out of the sand and see what you are doing to them.

In one breathe you say "The kids are not in harms way. So this “need to protect them” isn’t reality." And then in the next breath you say: "I had to hear my son (who was no longer a baby) scream, “Please don’t kill my mom."”

So you have some twisted definition of 'harm' and use that to rug sweep the effects on your kids by saying

My biggest hope is that he forgets it.

Your son will NEVER forget the fear he felt that his mother was going to be killed. He will NEVER forget what it was like to see his father walk out the door and not know when/if he would see him again. And depending on what he's heard of your affair, he will ALWAYS think that he was responsible for the anger between you and your H.

It doesn't matter how old he is, get him into counseling NOW!

Read and reread what prissy4lyfe wrote until it hits you that you and your husband have already given your kids invisible scars that they will carry for life. For as traumatized as you and your H are, you each had some understanding and control in the matter, while your kids are the true victims here. There are ways of separating that don't inflict lifelong damage on children, but you're too busy feeling sad and angry to see what you and your H have done to them. You can't undo what's been done, but you can start at this very moment taking better care of them. So pick up the phone and call your therapist and ask for a recommendation for a child therapist, or ask the principal at their school or head of their preschool.

Do it today,

[This message edited by BlackRaven at 3:41 PM, June 3rd (Thursday)]

Your son will NEVER forget the fear he felt that his mother was going to be killed. He will NEVER forget what it was like to see his father walk out the door and not know when/if he would see him again. And depending on what he's heard of your affair, he will ALWAYS think that he was responsible for the anger between you and your H.

Seems a bit hyperbolic and not really grounded in anything other than speculation. Stating an opinion is completely fine, but seems unnecessary to represent opinion as fact in order make your overarching point--one that I agree with--that it is important to ensure the children are minimally impacted by divorce. I believe sharing that opinion can be accomplished without shaming her or her husband.

IAT...

Hope you are giving yourself grace today

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 2:19 PM, June 3rd (Thursday)]