SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As a cop I did a lot of first-responder work at trauma-sites. A key factor was offering calm and hope. Even if I was certain a person was bleeding to death I wouldn’t scream out "YOU ARE GOING TO DIE!" but do my best to staunch the bleeding and calm the person.

I've never noticed anyone screaming at a poster that they were going to die. Divorce also isn't death. Catastrophizing the possibility of ending a bad relationship isn't healthy or productive.

Some people here tend to encourage reconciliation, others tend to encourage divorce. This preference is obviously based on the posters' own experiences, and there is value in what both types of posters have to say. I've never seen either screaming at a BS or telling them their life is over. On the contrary, posters are typically supportive and affirming of a BS's ability to improve the situation, regardless of which advice they give.

Giving straightforward advice to a person with an unremorseful and/or serial cheater to get STD tested, get therapy, consult with a lawyer, and begin planning an independent life is not at all like screaming at a BS. On the contrary, it's simply sharing an effective path out of a bad situation. "You're bleeding, so here are the steps to take to stop the bleeding, heal yourself and not let this happen again."

The BS's who post here and receive the blunt replies telling them to take steps to leave are not with the remorseful WS's who are earnestly trying to do their part to repair the marriage. They are with WS's who are serial cheaters, and/or who seem to be currently still cheating, and/or are blatantly unremorseful, and/or are emotionally abusive, etc. These BS's often have low self-esteem and/or are very afraid for their marriage to end. Those of us who have been in their shoes and have come out on the other side after finally leaving are saying, "The way you are being treated is not acceptable. You deserve a better life. You can stand up for yourself and leave and be strong and have a better life. And that's not the end of the world- it's a new beginning."

That is a positive, affirming message, not a panicky one.

[This message edited by morningglory at 1:29 PM, Wednesday, July 13th]

The tone of this forum is pretty tame and level headed compared to other forums. We may have had a few isolated incidents, BIMO these are far from what I’ve seen on other forums.

What I think might be happening is Red… has a forum titled "Surviving Infidelity". This site jumps right out at you in the search engines and seems to be growing and very active.

Infidelity business is still going strong.

Contributors get ego kibbles in the form of upvotes.

I have to say, this site has much better contributors, moderators and the ability to interact with WS’s is invaluable.

A lot of SI canon and lexicon has been borrowed by these other sites.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 2:44 AM, Thursday, July 14th]

RealityBlows has hit on what is probably the number one issue. In spite of all the good work that has been done here, it is still seen as a traditional forum and traditional forums have been suffering as people gravitate toward social media and mobile apps. SI has probably been slower than most forums to see that impact because its audience probably averages older than most forums. But as the victims of infidelity are more and more from the generation who grew up with these tools, they're going to turn to what is familiar.

Still, I don't doubt that the more militant voices have scared away their share of people - WS and BS alike. Obviously WSs at least want to feel safe. I know from experience that some BSs simply aren't ready to hear the full truth of their situation when they are fresh out of Dday. In trauma it's either fight or flight and if you're in fight mode you're grasping for hope whether it's realistic or not. Those people need to hear the truth, but it has to be delivered at the right time and with sensitivity to what they need.

Bumped by request

I can tell you that as a moderator on "that other forum", we are seeing much the same thing there as well. It is not unique to SI.

I don’t have the historical perspective to say anything about what may have changed, but I think I would count as a pretty active new member in the time period of interest. I can try to reflect on what kept me here.

First though, I’m an oddity in that I was lurking before D-Day. A case of what I thought was retroactive jealousy (that I now think of as my affair spidey sense tingling) sent me to the internet looking for help and I found SI.

I did look at various different forums. One using unmet needs as the foundation of their cult like advice, others that just seemed like crass idiots doing the worst of internet arguing over OP’s exposed nerves. SI was different. Not sure if that is a testament to the mods or the culture, but it was different. I think I remember being mesmerized by BSR very early on. What she spoke of exactly matched my understanding of what recovering from this would need, and she gave me hope it was possible.

Then when I was posting in JFO, I don’t remember a lot about that opening thread. But what is the enduring impression is This0Is0Fine wrote something that engaged my mind and my heart. Also I’m pretty sure I got the checklist from the infamous Hellfire, and suddenly I felt a part of the community.

So there was definitely the "find the voice that speaks to you" in my case. What that speaks to is the importance of maintaining a critical mass. I don’t have ideas on how to do that, but maybe having This0Is0Fine post weekly on Bayesian Belief Networks would do the trick. Worked for me!

[This message edited by InkHulk at 9:54 AM, Sunday, September 24th]

I actually was the one who suggested a bump. We have a few threads--some even on **this page**--with Stop Signs and a WS and BS clearly hurting. And yet, even though there are plenty of fWS here who could post, these threads are basically getting ZERO attention.

FWS on here, WHERE ARE YOU. YOU are the ones who need to step up to fix the lack of traffic here, the Stop Signs do not allow any of the rest of us to. Anyways go down this page and when you see a thread w a Stop Sign and only one or two posts, start posting!

For all forums, SI is an invaluable resource and I truly credit this site with my sanity. That being said, I want a fan of the format change as I still find it hard to follow certain threads and know where the process it. I miss the change of colour on visited links.

That being said, after 5+ years of my journey, I am at a "healed" stage and post less often for whatever reason. Part of it lies in the fact that other, often wiser members, have much better advice than I can give. Plus, I am an outlier and so I am reticent of salting the R well, so to speak. Although I read and resonate with the posts, I often will type out a long rsponse only to delete it. No idea why.

No matter what, I hope this site lasts for all of those future BS's and Waywards who need to find their way out of the mess that infidelity brings.

I can tell you that as a moderator on "that other forum", we are seeing much the same thing there as well. It is not unique to SI.

Interesting. I was wondering if the SI forum software being long in the tooth could play a roll but "that other forum" has a modern system and they’re seeing declines as well. Perhaps both are losing eyeballs to something that rhymes with "red" ?

I've recently joined this site but have been reading the forums for 18 months.

Involvement from WS's may be impacted by

- competing sites that offer similar services

The red board appears to be very active and includes the forum guidelines as: "If your only advice is "divorce", "dump them", "your SO sucks", or "grow a backbone", then please don't comment. This is a sub for deeper support and discussion". Some of these boards have a different layout for messages and responses and allow like/dislike or up voting/down voting on commentary.

- harder to find the website

Commercially oriented are spending money on "infidelity related" search terms so that they appear on the first page of search results. Some organisations would have setup "surviving infidelity" and camp on and benefit from the long history of this site. Maybe Red called there site the same as this one because they wanted to steal the traffic from this site.

- fear of betrayed spouse reactions

A requirement to effectively recover from infidelity for an unfaithful spouse is to provide transparent access to all social media accounts and online memberships to the betrayed spouse. This requirement to remove any secrecy from the relationship means that some of the struggles that an US has will be severely triggering to the BS will not be shared. things like:

- sharing all the instances of infidelity at one time rather than little by little

- limerance and taking a NO contact with the AP approach

- managing feelings of resentment when adopting/adapting to new boundaries (like no friends with opposite sex, or mandatory sharing of feelings)

- complaining about BS rage

- dealing with BS continued and repetitive requests for information

- dealing with BS continued and repetitive requests for same information

For me the main reason why I dont contribute is:

- dont have time to

- get frustrated with some of the WS that are so needy

- get frustrated with WS that are wallowing in self-pity and not following the good advice provided. (although at stages I was this person)

- helping others was a contributing reason for my infidelity and doing that instead of helping BS heal is not advised

- obtaining validation/affirmation from others was a contributing reason for my infidelity so participating in a forum like this can just shift where the validation/affirmation comes from rather than healing the drive for external validation.

[This message edited by seizetheday at 2:33 AM, Monday, September 25th]

I have never posted before, but I have followed this site for years. I think maybe this site is losing track of what is happening in the world and maybe is too introspective. I think maybe, on this topic, we are failing to realize how Covid changed everything. Prior to Covid, the ability to find therapeutic services was very limited. Post Covid, it is much easier. For instance, in my hometown of 40,000 or so, prior to Covid, therapy options basically revolved around people specializing in drug or alcohol addiction, child rearing problems, and/or marriage counseling. The few actual PH.D. psychologists or MD psychiatrists basically spend all their time on people with severe mental disorders as there were simply not enough professionals at that level to go around locally. As a result, options were pretty limited. Now, post Covid, my IC isn't even in the same state as me. We meet online, an it works well. Basically, now, it is simply easier than ever to find a counselor. So the value of sites like this are just less compared to being able to talk to someone who fits your specific needs and being able to find them ad connect with them so much easier than prior to Covid.

To say that, I don't mean to imply that this site has not been super helpful to me. It has, even if I haven't posted. I mean, I have issues that are yet unresolved. So I don't want to diminish what so many have done and continue do, so much as to point out that maybe things have simply changed in the modern world in terms of resources, and that fact is impacting the numbers on this and other sites.

Read this post sitting at the gate waiting for my flight (business trip) and just pondered. I am a processor.

Read it again this AM and pondered some more.

I really cannot speak to the point about posters being more strident and harder on WS's in recent years although I fear I may have been just that a time or two (one time in particular I backtracked and apologized). I have always found this site to be quite thoughtful on the whole and a bit more cerebral as to root issues and causes which has helped me put things in perspective concerning my own betrayal and that of others. Id have to do a much deeper dive into the history of the site to get a better feel for the historical tone.

I also cannot speak to the technical/marketing aspects of the site. I am not a tecky and do well to navigate my phone and laptop.

What I share now is anecdotal so take it for what its worth.

I am active on other sites and have struck up meaningful conversations with Waywards and Betrayeds trying to recover and some reconcile. One of these sites is pretty plebeian imo but can be helpful. I have encouraged a number of Waywards in particular to come to SI and post for what I consider to be deeper insight. They wouldnt do it due to fear of harsh responses. I told them that they could post in the Wayward forum with STOP sign so that only other Waywards could respond and that I had gotten some great insight from reading there. To my knowledge, they have not followed through to date. So, theres that.

One conjecture could be that due to the very nature of this site, i.e., deeper thought/perspective, it may intimidate many in our modern culture who are used to 60 second tik tok/reel videos and to have to read through many paragraphs of text is just not a la mode. Now, what IS interesting is the continued rise of the podcast which can be much more in depth and seems to attract users of all age strata. Not sure of the application here but something to consider.

The other is much more sinister and that is the ever changing mores of our society. This site espouses marital fidelity and eschews marital/relational "infidelity" (i.e. getting "out of" infidelity) which in and of itself is exclusionary and flies in the face of much of the modern thinking concerning marriage and committed relatiinship. Case in point, I was on my flight and had some time to take advantage of the in flight entertainment. One of the offerings was a reality series that showed various couples in therapy dealing with a number of issues and infidelity was one. The other that cropped up was open marriage. The prevailing thought as to infidelity was about processong your emotions in order to get to a healthier place for the individual and how to just move on from that place as individulas that happen to be together. Nothing about digging deeper as to toxic "whys". Nothing about betrayal. Just about integrating that experience into your life, processing your emotions, and moving on. It atarted to get to me and I switched to something else but I asked myself if this was indicative of the prevailing thought amongst some/many in the therapist profession. There are obviously many many more examples of this type of thought in society, this was just one of the more recent examples (yesterday).

Again, this is my subjective experience and the examples are anecdotal but I fear they may have bearing on the subject at hand.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 10:53 AM, Tuesday, September 26th]

Some very good input here and I want to address four issues:

(1)

We talk about the "other" site. Well… there are several "other" sites and some years ago there was a very active forum on a site that endorsed an action-plan that the founder (a renowned relationship therapist) had come up with. That forum is still up and running, but according to the time-stamps on discussions there sometimes doesn’t get any contributions for days.

So yes – this is not a SI-only issue, but seems to be impacting this form of interaction.

So no – the issue is not that SI doesn’t offer a definite path to solve all issues. If anything then I think that’s what is killing the "other" site – the other "other" site that is…

(2)

I think this might be a key issue:

The other is much more sinister and that is the ever-changing mores of our society.

Yes – this site does tend to endorse people get out of infidelity and many posters do have conservative views on fidelity and marriage. Yet there are many that are quite vocal about fidelity being something that a couple can define between themselves. We have members in poly and open relationships, same-sex, civil and religious marriage… I think this site is fine with it if a couple decides to try alternative relationships as long as it’s a mutual decision and both are behaving within the fidelity that they have defined together as a couple (or tipple or quadruple for that matter).

I think thought that this change in values and mores is deeper… My grandparents had a traditional marriage where the wife was at home and the husband worked and managed all the money. When my dad started working his wages went to his dad. In the exceptions where people divorced the kids would be with the mom and the dad see them once a month or something like that.

My parents had a more "modern" marriage where dad worked, mom was home but they handled all their issues together as a couple. Had they divorced I guess I would have gone to my dad every other weekend.

I have "the best" marriage where we are both happy in our careers, parenting was decided together (albeit she was home a lot more for some years…) and our finances are combined and we actively work to our joint and individual goals. My plan is to be with this woman and eventually lie in the grave next to her. This is for life – I hope. But if we had divorced I guess it would be one week with me for the kids, the next with her.

I sometimes think the "new" norm in marriage is that it’s temporary. It’s my car and her car, my house or 40% her and 60% mine, my salary, my pension, my hobby, my time-off… I think this makes it maybe an easier decision to simply end the marriage. After all – it was only temporary.

(3)

A lot of the advice I offer is based on my understanding of human behavior and reactions. There are a number of instinctive reactions people tend to show in crisis-situation. Like the fight or flight instinct, the instinct to want to win THAT fight even if it leads to losing even more…

I think one of the instinctual reactions when a poster is brave enough to share his story – betrayed or wayward – is to focus on the most negative input that is shared. You have a betrayed husband who is all in shock and wants to save his family being told repeatedly that his wife is a serial-cheater whore and hopeless case (and yes – as a member of staff I can state that we regularly must edit and admonish posters for this type of content). We have a wayward being allocated ALL the blame….

All things that MIGHT be true – but all things where the message might be gotten across in a kinder, more compassionate way.

Instinctively the poster focuses on the negative posts. The ones that are most out there and hurt him and his hopes the most. The gentler, milder ones are ignored. I think this is the main cause for so many single-post issues where someone has gathered the courage to share, but then flees the barrage of negativity.

(4)

We do have a high number of people that register but never contribute. That’s fine – there is no requirement to contribute. But the less people contribute the less good this site does.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 1:15 PM, Monday, September 25th]

For myself, I've been lurking a lot lately, there's several people here who I'm quietly rooting for.

Right now, I don't feel I have much to offer. We're in limbo, I'm kinda hanging on in purgatory (good times, bad times, H's indifference and continued standoff over my job). I feel like I don't have a lot to offer people in terms of "this worked for me" and "it's going to be ok" because that's not where I'm at right now.

I've done the work and gotten out of infidelity by working on myself. Not perfect and still keeping going until I'm the person I want myself to be. I'm showing up more authentically in my M and getting rid of codependency.

It's just... I don't feel like I have much to offer right now. It's hard to read the struggles of other WS's because I've been there and can relate. It's hard to read some of the BS's posts- especially about the emotional abuse, DARVO and struggles to regain self esteem. I can relate to that too (H had a few EA's over the course of our M). It's like I'm stuck between a recovering BS and a former WS who's neither D or R yet.

So... yeah, I don't feel like I have a lot of clarity or encouragement to offer right now as I currently have not much of my own.

Not a lack of caring, it's a lack of energy and a burn out. Perhaps there's several other WS's feeling the same?

Instinctively the poster focuses on the negative posts. The ones that are most out there and hurt him and his hopes the most. The gentler, milder ones are ignored. I think this is the main cause for so many single-post issues where someone has gathered the courage to share, but then flees the barrage of negativity.

We do have a high number of people that register but never contribute. That’s fine – there is no requirement to contribute. But the less people contribute the less good this site does.

I am a BH and relatively new to this site. I too lurked for quite a while (without even registering) before I started posting. The appeal to me was the ability to to interact and see what other posters across the entire spectrum of infidelity were saying and the way the site was laid out with specific topics. Also the ability to click on the person and see their entire story and profile with one click was a huge time saver compared to the "other, other, other" site that I am a member of.

This particular "wayward" section has also been of great interest to me to try to get into the "wayward mindset" because I can’t do that with my WW. Daddy Dom in particular has been a "go to" for me and I have shared many of his posts with my WW to "get her to think".

I don’t know what the "good old days" were like but I have seen a shift in the year+ I have been here lurking and then posting. Not for the good.

Like Bigger says, there seems to be a bit of a "tone" or "predictable response" when a new person posts. I can see people getting scared off quickly by this. One of the things I chuckle about is every time I see someone start with "Gently"….I know a 2x4 is heading their way. Like saying that before hand "excuses" everything afterward that is by no means "gentle"…

JFO and General are by far the most active sections IMO. Although we have many other good sections, they just don’t seem to get the same "traction". I was drawn in by the "found out years later" section but that is a Ghost Town. Lately, the JFO and General seem to have the problem of just a few posters starting multiple threads about basically the same things (or a subset of their larger thread). Then like clockwork, the same 2-3 posters dominate the thread giving the exact same advice which OP then spends time deflecting or defending themselves. It’s just become like watching the summer reruns where we know the plot and it never really changes. Hard to get any new advice from those.

Lately, there also seems to be a thirst for "drama" rather than a genuine "offer to help". I know this isn’t true of everyone but without fail you can predict certain posters will post on every thread and offer up the same advice like it is "gospel". When people take time away, they are "summoned out" like they "owe" the masses an update.

I don’t have any offer of solutions (if anyone else even agrees with me or not). I realize this "isn’t an airport and I don’t have to announce my departure" but as this thread was speaking to diminished traffic, I thought I would throw in my 2 cents on the way out….

I was very active on this site from 2004-2006. (17k posts. ) It was BUSY back then - there was rarely an instance where you could log off for a couple of hours and come back to absolutely no new updates or new posts. I think that's largely because there were fewer options for those looking for support back then, but it also could be because of the climate here now.

Instinctively the poster focuses on the negative posts. The ones that are most out there and hurt him and his hopes the most. The gentler, milder ones are ignored. I think this is the main cause for so many single-post issues where someone has gathered the courage to share, but then flees the barrage of negativity.

I don’t know what the "good old days" were like but I have seen a shift in the year+ I have been here lurking and then posting. Not for the good.

Yes, this. I was a wee bit surprised and sad when I came back a couple of years ago and saw how SI had changed to a harsher "do it this way or you'll be sorry" climate. I think that could be because DS is no longer here. She was a presence. She was SI. It was her baby. She took no crap, but did no harm and would often make posts putting the whole site in check. The mods/guides/attaches do a good job of mentorship now and handle problems well as they arise, but they're not a big presence like they were back then. There were 6-7 mods, and they were listed on the top of the forums screen. (That might still be the case if you're using the old-style site. I don't know.)

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 4:18 PM, Monday, September 25th]

I actually was the one who suggested a bump. We have a few threads--some even on **this page**--with Stop Signs and a WS and BS clearly hurting. And yet, even though there are plenty of fWS here who could post, these threads are basically getting ZERO attention.

FWS on here, WHERE ARE YOU. YOU are the ones who need to step up to fix the lack of traffic here, the Stop Signs do not allow any of the rest of us to. Anyways go down this page and when you see a thread w a Stop Sign and only one or two posts, start posting!

As someone who does try to lend a hand on the WS forum, it can be a double edged sword. I've tried to respond to a few stop signed posts and a lot of times you get very little to no response and/or not a lot to work with. I'm of the belief that not unlike myself, these WS come here with varying degrees of head up their ass. There are some non-stop sign threads right this minute that the head is fully jammed up there and others where they've come up for air and may be able to get their acts together. Don't get me wrong, I believe that all of those people should be and are given help, but I think the other thing we cannot control is the state of the waywards surroundings and life at the time they come here.

I'm a newbie - can someone tell me how to search members? I can't find a search bar when I click on members above - it just takes me to my own profile. And I'd like to check out posts by some of those mentioned. Thanks!

As always, thanks Bigger for your thoughtful and in depth analysis of the history of the site and your take on human behavior.

Among other comments, this intrigued me:

I sometimes think the "new" norm in marriage is that it’s temporary. It’s my car and her car, my house or 40% her and 60% mine, my salary, my pension, my hobby, my time-off… I think this makes it maybe an easier decision to simply end the marriage. After all – it was only temporary.

I hadnt thought a lot about the pre-positioning of certain aspects of the marriage in order to make detaching-seperation-divorce less difficult and thus relegatung the marriage to "temporary" status from the get-go, but this certainly rings true and seems to be the prevailing vein of thought among many. Rather than the traditional thought of the "two become one" in marriage, reflected in all aspects, the two remain two, sometimes without even a non binding agreement. Rather than casting aspersions, my reflection is, after viewing the landscape of almost half of first time marriages ending in divorce, isnt this just a natural outgrowth of self preservation at this point? Just postulating.

I wholeheartedly relate to this comment:

I have "the best" marriage where we are both happy in our careers, parenting was decided together (albeit she was home a lot more for some years…) and our finances are combined and we actively work to our joint and individual goals. My plan is to be with this woman and eventually lie in the grave next to her. This is for life – I hope.

My sentiment/perspective of my own marriage exactly.

Ill leave my thoughts/response concerning the various modern types of committed relationships out of this discussion as I dont think they'd be particularly helpful to the subject at hand.

I will also try to be more mindful of being less acerbic in my responses in the future. I fully admit to being triggered to various degrees and sometimes "shooting from the hip" as it were.

Thanks again Bigger.

I'm a newbie - can someone tell me how to search members? I can't find a search bar when I click on members above - it just takes me to my own profile. And I'd like to check out posts by some of those mentioned. Thanks!

Under the Members tab at the top of the page, there's a dropdown link that says "Search Members."

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 10:40 PM, Tuesday, September 26th]