SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I once read somewhere (maybe here) that it takes 2-5 years to get over being betrayed by an affair. We're at seven years now and I can honestly say things are better. At least, they seem to be better. However, every now and then my wife will do something that sends red flags up and all I can think about is if she's doing something again. Maybe I'm being paranoid, maybe I'm not. It's been years since I have mentioned anything about the affair because I don't want to be the guy who keeps pulling that card for little or no reason. I just avoid the subject and try to enjoy life and our marriage.

Here are a couple things that she did back in '15 and '16 when she was cheating (long distance affair):

1. She lost a lot of weight and was dolling up more and looking great.

2. She would come to bed late at night, long after I had already hit the sack and fallen asleep.

Here we are, and she has lost a lot of weight again and looking absolutely awesome, especially for a woman of 48. She's down to her wedding day weight now and it's quite incredible. She's also making it a habit of coming to bed late again, well after I'm asleep. Now, those two things in a vacuum wouldn't make me wonder, but with her history, I am, in fact wondering. She went out tonight on her own to do some clothes shopping, so I'm here with the kids. Of course, the entire night I'm sitting here, wondering if something's going on.

Maybe I'm being overly suspicious, but who's to say?

In the couple of years after finding out, I always looked forward to year four or five with the hope that I would be 100% past the infidelity and never be concerned about it again, but maybe that's just not how it happens for some people. Maybe the thoughts of renewed betrayal will always be lurking below the surface and be released when something triggers them. I could live with that...as long as I knew she was "clean."

Anyway, just showing up to talk and hear back from people.

Time doesn’t heal the pain.
It’s the work you BOTH do – individually and as a couple – that heals the pain, if done for 2-3 years until it becomes a standard part of your ongoing marriage.

I'm sorry you are feeling this way. I don't have any advice to offer you, just wanted you to know you have support here.

Along the lines to which Bigger refers to, what did you do to heal? What did she do to change from cheater to good partner? What did you both do to heal your M?

I'm concerned by your comment about avoiding subjects. That sounds like rug-sweeping, which may make a problem seem to go away but actually just lets a problem fester and grow.

WRT now, I think your best bet is to ask your W about her behavior.

There is no time limit to healing after affair. Yes you can’t bring up the affair as a trump card for any fight or disagreement that is just normal marriage stuff, but you can absolutely still be hurt by it. Don’t expect your wife to be a mind reader. Tell her what you are feeling and why. You have a right to be suspicious, she has proven herself that she can cheat/deceive etc. I can’t say what she is doing is a red flag, but for sure if you don’t know where she is at/doing that would make
me uneasy.

I don’t expect my WW to brief me her daily schedule, but I do expect to know who/where because of transparency. People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

Confront her, tell her what and why you are feeling. It may be innocent. You should be able to tell by her reaction. If it’s defensive, accusing you of being controlling and the like, then your red flags should go way up. If that’s the case, it’s up to you if you want to go back into Affair detection mode again.

You have power and choice here. You don’t have to stay regardless. Nothing will change if you don’t take action no matter what.

Ten years out, myself, to the day. Today is d-day.

What she is doing is totally suspicious, and I’d start looking at her phone, etc.

In fact, I’d say- your recent weight loss and clothes shopping and checking out from me at bedtime is triggering me, and is reminiscent of behavior you did during your affair. Prove to me you are not cheating again.

Then wait, and see what she does. If she gets defensive, this is a red flag.

I have told my husband that HE chose to stick around, he could have left. But instead he’s with this glorious beast of a bitch whom he left hobbled by his affairs. And if that’s a problem, there’s the god damned door. Use it. Otherwise, he can answer my questions without defensiveness,

What she is doing is concerning. You’re not imagining things.

Other posters have hit the nail on the head.

Healing takes work + time.
Healing your relationship is not something one partner can do alone.
Just because things have gotten better, doesn't mean both partners can stop working on themselves and their relationship.

Yes, her behaviour is suspicious given her past behaviours. That doesn't mean there's anything nefarious going on, but your feelings are perfectly valid considering. I would also ask your wife about her behaviour and explain how its making you feel. If her heart is in the relationship she won't be defensive and will understand how you're feeling.

Now, I realize I never R in my M, so take my advice for what it's worth or flush it.

This is a tricky situation, because confronting could alienate her or drive her behaiour further underground. But IMHO, if she is truely remorseful, she will be apologetic for having originally betrayed you and caused you to be in this headspace and then make every effort to be transparent and supportive. That's only if she isn't cheating or playing with the idea.

The subconscious mind is a powerful thing. You don't have to read much on this site to come to the conclusion that hunches are often right, even if we are a biased group. I remember reading somewhere that research has confirmed that intuition is actually quite accurate. It's like the "ick" response we feel when speaking to a stranger who later turns out to be psychopathic. Our subconscious picks up on the subtle predatory cues while our consciousness mind seeks to discount them as being irrational.

My advice is to approach this on two fronts. First, don't confront your FWW but do speak to her about your concerns, not that she might be cheating, but that you feel she might be going through something and it is impacting your feelings of intimacy. I'm a firm believer that spouses should go to bed together when practical. Pillow talk is a bonding activity and reinforces and deepens the relationship. By the way, is your intimate life healthy? Still the same frequency?

Second, (and this might anger some) I would discreetly examine things. Look at phone records, credit/bank statements, clean out the car and look for a burner phone. Yes,this might be a betrayal of her trust, but married people (typical) deserve to have privacy, not secrets. (Vets chine in if I'm off base here) By engaging in her A originally, she by default, has given up the right to full pre-A trust. She has shown herself to be one who kept secrets in the past,so that means she is fully capable of it now. For you, it's trust, but verify...

Ladies and gents, I appreciate the responses. All of them. I want to make it clear if I didn't do a good job of it in my first post, but things have been pretty good for a while. I believe my wife took steps in her life to make things right for our marriage and our family. Intimacy has been ok overall (not awesome, but awesome is a high bar) too.

I'm in a weird spot right now. My wife has lost a LOT of weight and genuinely looks incredible (and yes, I tell her that), and for that I'm obviously quite thankful and happy. She fits into clothes she hasn't worn in years (since the affair). However, while I marvel at her, I also remember the last time she lost a lot of weight and worked on her body. That "remembering" makes we wonder....

Then we have the deal with me going to bed alone every night, which is exactly what she did during the affair, too. That part gets me more than the weight loss, as it really limits "close" time, and I don't only mean physical intimacy. For years, our best time together was just laying in bed at the end of the day and chatting about everything going on in our lives.

One of the biggest red flags from the affair was her guarding her phone like it was Fort Knox. I do not see any of that now, so there's that.

So, I'm torn.

Well, the weight loss can be because she's made an effort to being healthier. It's not necessarily a bad thing on its own, but again, I do see how it can be triggering. The fact that she's not guarding her phone is a good thing. It still doesn't hurt to do a little checking to see what's going on.

It sounds like the (emotional) intimacy at night is bothering you the most. Again, this could be just circumstance, but at the same time if it is, you don't have to feel neglected in your marriage. If it's bothering you, you need to talk with your wife and let her know how you feel about wanting that connection and about the fears lurking in the back of your mind. If you can't be open and vulnerable with your wife, then you're not honouring your needs and her need to understand where you're coming from.

Either way, things aren't going to change if you don't make a change. You have nothing to lose by addressing issues you see in your relationship.

Bump by request of OP.

Hi I am a ws seven years out and I would want my husband to tell me if I am doing anything that’s triggering the time of the affair. I would want to be there to reassure him and come up with a plan together that creates safety for both of us and brings us closer.

I know it’s vulnerable to bring it up, but when we do that and our spouse is receptive and interested in what our needs are or how we are feeling it continues to build intimacy, connection, and trust.

If she reacts poorly you may find that to be a different answer, and perhaps you are avoiding the topic for fear of that. If she can’t respond calmly and kindly and with concern, you will have a deeper suspicion. But getting it on the table is going to get you out of where you are how much faster.

What do you think is holding you back?

Edited to add: also not sure if you are talking about frequency of intimacy or quality or both. But that’s another topic I think couples should spend time discussing. It’s interesting that earlier in our marriage I used to be a bit up and down on my desire, probably because he wanted to more often than I needed. He saw this as rejection- even though I rarely turned him down I couldn’t always get *there*. Now that he is older and his hormones have changed, and he sometimes needs a little pill to assist we see each other from reversed roles. It’s quite revealing to both of us.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:46 PM, Wednesday, August 7th]

In the couple of years after finding out, I always looked forward to year four or five with the hope that I would be 100% past the infidelity and never be concerned about it again, but maybe that's just not how it happens for some people. Maybe the thoughts of renewed betrayal will always be lurking below the surface and be released when something triggers them. I could live with that...as long as I knew she was "clean."

As someone on a similar timeline to yours but admittedly not fully R'ed, because we terminated our marriage about 5 years ago now but we still date, albeit from a distance as I moved away, I understand these feelings.

First - I don't think anyway is ever 100% past infidelity to the point they will never be concerned about it again. Sometimes I may feel that way but the reality is I will always be "concerned" about infidelity no matter who I am with. And in all honesty I think not being concerned about infidelity is naive at best. It can happen to a lot of relationships given the right circumstances and the right partner. And you know you happen to have one of those partners who it can happen with as it already has. So going through life pretending your WS's boundaries/commitment is the same as yours, when you know from past experience it is not, isn't normal IMO. It's a kind of mental rug sweeping that I personally cannot manage to engage in (nor do I want to).

Second, I can empathize with that "red flag waving gut feeling" you are talking about - about past behavior rearing the A's ugly head. Here's a recent example for you that seems similar to yours. I also cannot overstate how important it is that you lose your fear of rocking the boat to the point you decide to engage in your own form of a lack of mental housekeeping and sweep it all under the rug.

I will give you my own relatively recent example of something similar and my response to it, which was to ask about it. Feel free to skip all of this if you want and head to the bolded section at the end.

My WH also engaged in similarly off-putting behavior relatively recently on occasion that mirrors his A-behavior. He is not a go to bed early kind of guy and never has been, even when he works early he rarely goes to bed when he should. His work schedule is very odd, and when I explain it to people they wonder how anyone can function at all - with late starts followed by early starts followed by shifts with only 9 hours in-between followed by 3 days off (where he may have to cover a shift of mandatory OT which could fall anytime of day), only for it all to start again. It is hard for him to be on any kind of normal sleep schedule and luckily for him he is able to fall asleep almost instantly no matter how long (or short) it has been since his last sleep. On occasion he will fall asleep early, on the couch, and wake up 4-5 hours later and wander into bed. Sometimes he remains on the couch the whole time until his alarm goes of. His job is truly exhausting and when he passes out wherever he may be lying down he is just done. But when he passed out on the couch was not something he planned - it would just happen. I can't tell you how many times when I still lived there he would say at 7 he needed to go to bed early and he would still be up talking to me at midnight (I too am a very late night person so midnight is normal for me to be wide awake).

With that background, at the start of the A I was working out of state for a year. I am now also living out of state, so we talk on the phone several times week - and text daily - just like we did back then (although then we talked on the phone every day without fail). Pre-A when I started working on my 1-year out of state contract, he would normally text me throughout the day and then call me around 11pm and would want to talk for hours. My job then required me to get up early so I would normally be the one to end the call around midnight and go to sleep. Once the A started (but I was yet to know about it) he sometimes (on the night of his AP's husband's overnight shift as it figured out later) he would still text during the day but he would call me early in the day around 6 and talk to me for about an hour. And during those early calls he would mention multiple times how tired he was, and how he probably was going to go to bed early, and would hang up around 7. If I were to call after 8 that night he would not answer.

The lack of answering wasn't the red flag - when he goes to sleep he is out (we used to have many times pre-A where he would be asleep and his phone would be ringing and it would wake me up while he would sleep right through it). The red flag was that he would never answer if I called after 8 on those days. Before even if he said he was going to try to sleep early if I called several hours later - like 95% of the time he would answer and still be awake, or he would end up texting me as he had not gone to sleep as planned. As I realized after about a month, he was routinely calling early on Monday nights and then would never answer after 8 on those nights - never. Well of course he wasn't asleep at all - he was at her house while her H was at work, or if she could get away from her baby (they were both such scumbags) she would be at our house. Either way, he tried to lead me to believe he was sleeping early those nights when the complete opposite was true. The more he didn't answer the more I called...and the more tension I felt.

Recently he started that same behavior - calling me earlier and telling me he was going to be early, only on certain nights. Granted those nights do correspond with the nights he works at 6am so again, going to bed early would be a good idea, but its something he really never has done with any consistency. So, I called him out about it. Straight up. I told him that his newfound going to bed early was making me wonder based on the past as described above (which he never even realized I noticed - I'm sure during the A aftermath I told him but he forgot (and yeah - must be nice to just forget those things)).

His response was that his doctor (he has mandatory med evals every year for his job) told him that his BP, which is already too high, was inching higher and that he really needed to make some changes to try to address that, and his crazy shift work is known to not help, but that really trying to get on a regular a sleep schedule as possible and getting more sleep may help some. And indeed he did tell me that when he came back from his last annual exam. So he tells me he is trying to make himself go to sleep on the nights where he has an early start the next day. He is very concerned (and has been so this is not a new concern) about getting medically disqualified from his position due to his high BP - he has had high BP since his early 20s and it is medically controlled but in the past 10 years it has been slowly creeping up - and because he is no longer 20, but closer to 50, it's not going to go down or stabilize without some changes on his part.

So, what do I do with that? My situation is a bit different to yours in that we never fully R'ed. When I left I had no intention of going back, and in all honestly I'm not sure I want to full time - ever. In fact I'm not sure I want a full time relationship ever again - maybe when I retire, but for now I like my freedom, I love my house decorated how I want and as clean (or not) as I care to have it. I love planning to travel and not have to worry about coordinating schedules. Yeah, I've become a bit selfish! lol

But, we are dating still, and while we do not have a traditional monogamy agreement - we do have an agreement that if one of us decides we want to see someone else we will tell each other and the other can decide how/if they want to carry on. So, WH really has no reason to lie, like at all - he is free to go and his AP is divorced and as far as I know, single, so if he wanted to take up with her there is nothing stopping him from doing so aside from telling me he wants to date other people. Period. Granted he didn't have anything from stopping him from telling me before really before either, yet he did it.

So how do you (and I) proceed from here WillItEverBbetr? In my case I have to decide if I trust my WH enough to believe his explanation. In your case I think, as other people have advised, you have to ask for the explanation and see how you feel about the response. My WH, back in the day, was very defensive-walls-up when the A would get mentioned. This time we talked about how I felt now, and talked about his past behavior, very openly. I think judging the response you get will tell you more than you think it will. Until you have the response, I think the rest is unnecessary guesswork. But, if you think you are in red-flag city, then try to find out on your own (as I'm sure you know once you show your hand and let a WS know you are suspicious, catching them becomes more difficult). But it sounds to me like you are not there - so coming out with it and bringing it up would be the path I would choose in your situation.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 5:47 PM, Wednesday, August 7th]

I appreciate the new responses and want to give an update here.

About a week ago, I finally sat down with my wife and told her I have been noticing subtle things about her actions that have made me uncomfortable and that they have brought a sense of danger to me, reminding me of what transpired during the A. I told her flat out that if anything was going on, she should tell me because the one thing worse in my book than fooling around is lying (about it). I told her to just be honest because she knows I detest liars and lying. All this was said calmly but firmly. I also told her if there is ever another "thing" going on or "somebody else," I'd rather know about it so we could end the marriage immediately and without unnecessary fuss. I was very frank with her about that, because I needed to show her that I am 100% ready and willing to cut her loose rather than continue any further with a partner that isn't 100% committed to being honest and faithful.

Her response was also very calm, like she knew this was coming. She said there is nothing going on and she reiterated that she she told me after the A that she'd never do something like that again. She said she knows the saying "once a cheater, always a cheater," but that she is totally committed to being a faithful wife. She asked what behavior on her part was making me think something was up and I told her about me going to bed alone nearly every night and I also mentioned her phone usage (which has recently sent my rabbit ears up). She hasn't been as bad with her phone lately, but it was enough to make me wonder. I did not mention anything about her weight loss, as I really appreciate how she's keeping herself and didn't want to undermine or short circuit that.

She said she realizes that she may never have my complete trust ever again, but that she's willing to keep working on being the best wife she can be and live with the results.

After we had both said our peace, I asked to see her phone. She handed it over and said she understands where I'm coming from that it is "hurtful" that I wanted to go through her phone. I simply said that I understand and asked her to unlock it and such. You see, one of the things that makes me question her is the fact that during the A when she lost weight and dolled herself up a lot (for him, as it turned out), she was always taking pictures of herself. I mean all the time. During the A, I would see "glamour" shots she'd do of herself, but obviously the never saw the racy or sexually explicit photos until it was clear something was going on and D-day was imminent. Even with this recent weight loss and her buying a whole new wardrobe, there are virtually no pictures of herself on her phone. None. Nothing. I know her. I know how she operates and that taking pics of herself is her thing...but there's nothing there. Nada. Nothing in her regular folder, nothing in the "hidden" folder, nothing in "deleted." I fully expected to see SOMETHING, but there were no pictures of her alone "posing."

So, she really seems like she is truthful about her being "clean" and our intimacy has been decent. Again, not earth shattering by any stretch, but I don't have any huge complaints. The quality and quantity is acceptable. I did tell her that one thing I wish was different was that many times she seems like she's not "here" when we're intimate, and that isn't that what intimacy is all about? Being "there" and in the moment with your spouse? She agreed with me and said it's hard for a woman to turn off the outside world and focus on just one thing, even if it's sex when your having sex.

Anyway, it felt good for me to get all this off my chest. We'll see where it all goes.

it's hard for a woman to turn off the outside world and focus on just one thing, even if it's sex when your having sex.

I agree that is truthful. Especially during child rearing years because the mental load is exhaustive at times.

God you talked with her and sounds like you have the answers you needed.

Glad you had the talk. I will ask, when you had your d-day did you mention the photos to her as part of your discovery? (On D-day 1 I blurted out everything that made me suspicious, which made it harder to catch him when we had d-day 2 - which we did have - he continued his A for a full year after d-day 1). If so, the fact she is a picture taker and there isn't a single photo seems odd to me, but only you know. Also, WH and I have an agreement - there is NO password of mine or his we don't mutually know. None. If I ask to see his phone I don't need to have him open it - I can. Granted it was that way before the A too - only during the A all of a sudden his password had changed and he hadn't told me about it - and he had some bs excuse as to why it changed. Yeah - one of the millions of red flags in my prior situation.

I would also bristle if my WH said he felt "hurt" that I had issues with trusting him when behaviors matched A behaviors. That is a fact of life for me going forward, and for him so long as he wants to be with me.

As I mentioned in a different post, there is so much about infidelity that mirrors dealing with an addict. Even after 10 years of sobriety on part of my good friend's husband, some little things he has done still made her wonder just for a moment if he's not using again. It's a self defense mechanism - you are trying to protect you from someone, and it's just triply hard because it is a person you profoundly care about. As someone who lived with a drug addicted close relative for years I HATED those feelings. Those moments are unsettling to the betrayed, and I don't think that unsettled feeling ever wholly 100% goes away.

Even with this recent weight loss and her buying a whole new wardrobe, there are virtually no pictures of herself on her phone. None. Nothing. I know her. I know how she operates and that taking pics of herself is her thing...but there's nothing there. Nada. Nothing in her regular folder, nothing in the "hidden" folder, nothing in "deleted." I fully expected to see SOMETHING, but there were no pictures of her alone "posing."

This strikes me as a red flag, especially given her recent weight loss. If this is her usual thing and she's not doing her usual thing...why? Makes me wonder if there's a burner phone.

Her response was also very calm, like she knew this was coming.

This is odd, too. She may be perfectly clean, but if she was cheating again, she'd be on her toes and prepared for questions.

Does she come to bed later than you, or does she sleep elsewhere entirely? Is that something fairly new? Lots of couples sleep separately, especially as they age, but I would think that if it was due to snoring or insomnia, she would have mentioned it. The biggest tell for my H's distance during his As was that he wouldn't come to bed at all.

I can see why your hackles are up. Mine would be too. I think I would act like I accepted her explanations that all is well and remain quietly watchful.

Also, WH and I have an agreement - there is NO password of mine or his we don't mutually know. None. If I ask to see his phone I don't need to have him open it - I can.

Same here. I don't check his phone, but I could if I wanted to.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 9:56 PM, Wednesday, August 7th]

First, let me preface everything that comes after this by saying I think I believe her when she says she's on the up and up. I want to believe her. For the most part, she hasn't given off overt "cheating" vibes since the A. She also seems happy, which strongly suggests to me that she is happy.

Now, the things that are causing me to look around and see if I'm standing on plastic are:

A. The weight loss
B. Coming to bed after I'm asleep
C. Many times being "distant" when we're intimate
D. Every now and then I see hints of weird phone behavior
E. She's not taking photos of herself all dolled up when she has a history of doing so

As I said in an earlier post, I can't and won't make her weight loss an issue because I love the results. At 49, she looks 39.

While I don't like going to bed alone, she is historically a night owl, so even though I don't like it, I can't change her. In the years immediately after the A, she made it a point to go to bed at the same time as me, but I guess she's settling into a routine that is more "her" now.

Her being distant during intimacy is bothersome. Now she knows I've noticed. I'll see if anything changes.

For the most part, she doesn't do anything overtly sneaky with her phone, but every now and then I detect something. She has her phone set up so only her fingerprint will open "secure" picture folders, so even though I know her password, I still can't get into those folders without her opening them. That bugs me.

The fact that there are no pictures of herself posing on her phone is slightly worrisome, however. She looks great, she knows it, and she dresses the part. Why is she seemingly not photographing herself, when she has a history of doing this?
_____________________________

OK, now that we've gone over all that, I'll answer the question one of you had about finding photographic evidence of the A eight years ago. Back then, I first noticed weird things happening in very early '16, like around January or February. By May, the signs were getting more obvious, and then by summer, there was no question in my mind anymore (my mother even was asking me about things because she was seeing signs of an affair, too). Well, by late August and early September, I had enough and was asking to see her phone. On 9/11/16, I finally found XXX rated photos of herself that she was taking for her AP. Stuff that you'd expect to see in XXX mags from back in the day. I also found songs that they were sharing back and forth, too, and the songs hurt just as much as the pictures, if that makes any sense. I also know that what I found was only about 1% of what she had done. Also, I know in my heart that if I found the texts or writings between them, I probably would not be married to her right now. Words come from the heart and there's no way I could read what she wrote him and continue with the marriage. So, yay?

9/11/16 was a Sunday and when she woke up, I brought her outside in the back yard with my computer and I asked if the following song had any significance to her...and then played one of "their" songs. That's when she knew I knew and she finally confessed to it all.

Writing and remembering all this is putting a lump in my throat, so I'm going to end the post now.

5 children and she has time to do all of that? I would have been divorced in a month.
Based on what you have endured, you need to have some "real" discussions.

The private photos folder, was there anything in it when you checked? Why does she have it? Does she send you sexy photos? It does not make sense to have that folder unless there is a reason.

Does she have any apps that delete messages once sent?

Can you go to bed one night and then get up and go see what she is doing? Casually, like you need to grab your phone or 'just couldn't sleep'?

Do you have location sharing enabled as a family? Have you ever tried using a VAR?

Those are all things you could do or look for that might provide more confidence.