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Firstly, please be gentle as I'm feeling really fragile. And I apologise in advance if this post is all over the place. I'll try and keep it short...

WH and I are about 17 months from DDay, he had a EA/PA and actually temporarily left me and our kids for the AP. He came back a short while after.

He has TT, gaslit and manipulated me through R, but has also seemed deeply remorseful and full of shame and guilt (I know that seems contradictory). About 5 or 6 weeks ago I really felt we had reached point where I possibly knew everything there was about the A, and that maybe he was finally telling the truth - or more that he had TT everything there was to know - there has to be an end point right? We even told our kids about the A, and I felt we became closer as a family.

We had a really peaceful few weeks, and I felt a sense of ease that I hadn't felt since before the A. However, my head, heart and gut just won't align it seems 😔

Over the past few days I just keep feeling this intense gut feeling that won't ease. In my gut, I can't accept that he's being honest. Now this could just be because of his chronic lying but, I could also be spot on. I have been every time before.

I feel he's hiding stuff from the past and the A. Some stuff I have no real reason to believe, its just a gut feeling, but a few other things are based on my own logic/phone bills.

We had a row last night and I think I reached my tipping point. I'm reflecting on some of the shitty things he said to me, which were in response to my own shitty statements, don't get me wrong.

I told him I don't understand why he is willing to risk being financially destitute, for the sake of taking a risk and telling me everything (if we separate he will seriously struggle, I've done the math). His response was that he won't be destitute as he will go "scorched earth" on me. What does this mean? It feels like a thinly veiled threat to me. Seriously?

I told him I wish he was not the father of my children (I know, I know, an abominable thing to say - but there is a nugget of truth there. Maybe if id had kids with someone else, they wouldn't have brought this shit storm into their lives). His response was that he wishes I wasn't their mother, either? I mean wtf? He's destroyed my life, my mental health, I've given him chance after chance....how can those words even leave his mouth? I know anger is the reason, but still. After the pain he has caused me?

Anyway, I snapped and said I was done. I told him I want to separate and that I have blocked him on WhatsApp and I only want to hear from him via email (which obviously makes no sense as we live together still? But I was reeling). He slept downstairs and went to work in the morning without a word. Not a peep all day. Fine, that's what I asked for right. It hasn't stopped me from crying and having a stomach full of knots all day whilst trying to work with two kids at home.

Before I knew he should be leaving from work this evening, I unblocked him on WhatsApp (gosh even writing that sounds so childish) and sent him a message asking him if he could please buy a bottle of wine on the way home, as I'm really not feeling OK (yes, not the best coping mechanism right now! Though maybe he'd offer an ember of empathy?). But no response. I checked life360 and he was 30 mins in the opposite direction of where he was due to finish. I can't explain the adrenaline that shot through me, but I felt sick to my stomach. He frequently used to use "late home from work", as an excuse to go and have sex with AP. I know rationally this wasn't what he was doing as AP is abroad and he doesn't work at the same place anymore, but the physiological response felt the same. Throughout R, he has ALWAYS let me know if he was going to be late off. And stayed in contact. He knows it's a huge trigger of mine.

Anyway, when I pointed out he clearly wasn't going to be home anytime soon as I've checked life360, his excuses for not letting me know are 1) didn't have time (yes he did). 2) I'd blocked him and he had no way of letting me know (text, house phone, email, a quick message to our kids?). 3) I had told him to leave me alone so he thought I wouldn't want to know.

It can't be all 3?

Nope. I believe he was being childish and obstinate. I told him to leave me alone, so that's what he's done, right? If I want to be left alone, then he sure as hell isn't going to let me know he's late home. If I worry and perhaps contact him, we'll then that's a bonus right?

I feel his actions are speaking volumes. Instead of stepping up when R isn't going his way, his response is to literally do nothing and then claim, well that's what I "told" him to do. Leave me alone. Shame he didn't do what I told him when i told him not to sleep with other people. Or lie to me to the point of making me unwell.

So...my point was...should he have let me know he was going to be late home? Or should I accept that, well I told him to leave me alone, so what can I expect? (Ha, just writing that made me remember why I blocked him on WhatsApp last night - he usually doesn't leave me alone when I tell him I'm done due to TT, and starts sending me articles about lying as a mental health disorder 🤔).

I can feel myself detaching in a way I never have before 😔

First of all, why are y'all using WhatsApp? That's a cheaters' paradise.

Second, never say "I'm done, I want to separate" unless you mean it. Ever. It's passive aggressive and it leaves the door wide open for bullshit like this. Separated people don't let their ex know where or when they're going, they're not obligated to pick up their phones when their STBX calls, and they don't bring home bottles of wine. I don't mean to be a pill, but you basically did this to yourself.

Y'all need to learn how to communicate if you want to have any hope of saving this. You MUST quit sniping at each other with hurtful statements. You need to put your money where your mouth is and ONLY say things that you mean. If you catch yourself saying something shitty out of anger, you back up immediately and say, "I'm sorry. I didn't mean that. I popped off because I'm angry."

Have either of you had counseling?

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 8:19 PM, Wednesday, October 25th]

I suggest IC for clarity and support.

Hardknocks- he did briefly, but only a few sessions. He lied to his counsellor, so wasn't overly affective, but he did dig deep on some childhood issues. I've had some counselling and EMDR, but again not much as it was a real struggle financially. I'm awaiting some counselling funded by the NHS now though, but I haven't got high hopes.

SS33 - I've never seen WhatsApp as a problem? Is it? Argh, I don't know, we have our family group with the kids, a few work chats and other friends, buts that it 😬

You're right, the sniping and shitty comments need to stop. It just all feels so painful, I physically don't know what to do with myself. I feel like I could explode at times, when it's obvious he's been lying. How do I deal with that?

Slight update though - so part of his betrayal with the A, was he literally destroyed my character to his friends and family. He kept telling people how awful I was, as justification for leaving me. Literally none of it was true. He was having an affair. It has really severed the relationship with my inlaws. They were really unkind towards me during the A (well their son was lying to them), and blamed me for the destruction of our marriage. Despite WH fessing up to them that it was all bullshite, he was cheating etc etc, I've had luke warm apologies from them. Things, to me, still feel frayed and awkward. It's gutting because they're the only family I have down here.

Today he says he spoke to his mum on the phone and told her all about our argument last night, how I was mean and deleted him of WhatsApp. He said he said to her that he "understands why I am the way I am" - but obviously he's her baby boy - so in her opinion, I "need to just make my mind up". She has made it clear to him that she doesn't see why I need to know so many details. He's spoken to her before about things, promised her he's not lying and im the one with with issue- yet each time he's been lying. So I'm yet again painted as the villain. It feels like yet another betrayal. I'm painted as the crazy irrational nut job, as her poor son is just trying to make amends for his wrongdoings (as a little insight, she is treated as a complete doormat by his dad).

Really lost and sad 😔

[This message edited by WhiskeyBlues at 9:11 PM, Wednesday, October 25th]

He's not remorseful. He's sorry he was caught. He's regretful. That's not the same.

He hasn't shown himself to be reconciliation material, through the entire attempt at R. You are dragging him through it.

He would go scorched earth, on a woman who he has traumatized and abused.

He keeps showing you who he is. It's time to believe him.

A remorseful ws,who truly wanted reconciliation, would have told you he would be late,and why.

He doesn't want true reconciliation. He isn't doing the work. He's angry and defensive and has lied hundreds of times through this attempt. He just doesn't want to divorce. And there is a huge difference.

Ok there are so many issues here it is hard to unravel.

Major red flags:

Using texts/apps to communicate
Him talking to his mother who gives advice
Him not being man enough to tell the truth about everything
Your decision to tell him it’s over (not sure if you meant it)
Your expecting him to communicate his whereabouts
You not seeing him for the person he is

I am hoping you at least have your own counselor or some support just for you. You can’t change him. But you can help yourself.

Should he have communicated to you? Yes a mature person would do that. However in the middle of a vicious argument all bets are off and he will stand on the premise that "if we are done I don’t need to tell you anything".

I hope you can see how you both need to calmly and rationally communicate to be able to move forward and truly reconcile.

Agree with Hellfire that this doesn't sound like R nor is he remorseful. The fact that he has never righted the wrong of smearing you to friends and family... and keeps doing it...no.

he won't be destitute as he will go "scorched earth" on me.

I mean it's no wonder you say the things you do to him. He keeps pressing your buttons and that gets a reaction.

A remorseful ws,who truly wanted reconciliation, would have told you he would be late,and why.

^^^This

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 9:32 PM, Wednesday, October 25th]

I think it's pretty fair to say that most of us who have been around the block a few times can usually tell pretty quickly whether or not a WS is good candidate for R. I'm sorry to say that if we were betting on WSs to win the R race, your WS would be firmly categorized as a long shot. It's possible that he could have a miraculous awakening and start working towards becoming a safe partner, but the odds aren't great.

TT, disparaging you to your in-laws, running to his mummy and oversharing with her, threats of scorched earth, etc.

Your gut is screaming at you. What do you think it's trying to tell you?

Ss33 - I feel my gut is telling me to run as fast as my short little legs will carry me 😭😭

Are your finances separate?

I can think of a couple of ways your H can avoid poverty. If you make more than he does, you might be required to pay some maintenance. If he's nasty enough, you might find it worthwhile to buy him out of your M.

But, but, but ... I, too, have a hard time understanding why you haven't dumped him already. What is holding you back?

He absolutely should have let you know, unless this is the 1st time this has happened. I didn't let my W know I was going for a drink - which turned into a few hours and lots of drinks - for the 1st and last time about 4 months into our M. That was in 1968.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:15 PM, Wednesday, October 25th]

Sisoon, nope, we both work full time but he earns over double what I do. Both our names on the mortgage.

What's holding me back? Nothing really at this point. I know he's angry, but the absolute crock of bullshit he's been coming out with this evening has astounded me tbh. It's like being back at square one.

He made a shitty comment whilst I was hugging our daughter goodnight, she walked in on our argument and I said daddy and I just needed some space and I gave her an extra big hug as I was upset and she clearly was a bit confused, but he commented, whilst she was there "oh poor mummy" (or something to that effect) in sarcastic tones. I literally wanted to obliterate him in that moment. Then after that it was how I "needed to accept this was on me now" (by this he means the decision to end things - I mean let's forgot his affair and continued lies/deception/abuse is a factor here, right?).

There's more, including him telling me I'm a "mess" and "look at how you're treating me". This is after telling me, for some bizarre reason, that when we both get paid this month he wants his own wages out of our joint account and he will pay in half of what's due, so just the mortgage. He wants me to apply for benefits tomorrow top to up my wages (which usually takes 6 weeks). It's just a shit show.

But I mean he's totally remorseful, right?

I honestly think he thinks he's remorseful. He does simply not get it. I'm resigned to that now ☹

Your WH isn’t remotely remorseful, in fact he’s disparaging you to his parents and friends and now is trying to put you in bad light in front of your kids. I wouldn’t even attempt R with someone with that attitude.

This is after telling me, for some bizarre reason, that when we both get paid this month he wants his own wages out of our joint account and he will pay in half of what's due, so just the mortgage. He wants me to apply for benefits tomorrow top to up my wages (which usually takes 6 weeks).

lol it doesn’t work that way. I have a friend divorcing right now (I’m in the UK too) and she’s getting around 80% of the equity/assets as the lower earner. A lot of people think divorce is 50/50 because that’s what the law says, they don’t understand that divorce (at least in the UK) means putting all the money/assets in one pot and dividing in a fair way so that both parties can maintain as close to the previous life style as possible. Also, what benefits? If you’re high earners as a household (it sounds like you are) nobody would take your application just because your husband decided not to contribute anymore.

Go and discuss with a D solicitor and seeing his threatening behaviour, best to start protecting yourself.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 8:47 AM, Thursday, October 26th]

He’s a remorseless selfish jerk who is clearly concerned about making you miserable.

Not much to work with.

Read up on the 180.

He’s probably very annoyed that you told him you wanted a D. People like him need to "win" and in his eyes, he’s not.

How sad. Sorry you have to deal with this in top of everything else.

This is after telling me, for some bizarre reason, that when we both get paid this month he wants his own wages out of our joint account and he will pay in half of what's due, so just the mortgage.

Unless he said this before your big fight, it's not bizarre. It's a response to your "I'm done, let's separate" remark. You said it, and he's taking it and running with it because he knows you don't mean it and he wants to jab back at you.

He’s lacking remorse first of all. He’s petulant he was caught and he’s trying to shift blame onto you for his choice to betray. The mental gymnastics a WS will perform would put most to shame. I’m stuck on the "scorched earth" comment. That is pure selfish narcissism. I don’t think he’s a good candidate for R right now and may never be. I would consider doing a 180 and leaving immediately. I’m so sorry this is happening to you.

Get to a lawyer/solicitor immediately. Learn what your rights are and how to protect you and your kids.
I am so sorry he’s acting this way— he is not R material, and he sounds like an entitled ass.

Whiskey, I've only just noticed this post from you, I'm soooo sad for you that it's not panning out how you'd hoped, absolutely gutted for you 😔😔 It really does sound like you would be so much better off without your husband in your life, this will slowly destroy you the longer you stay in it, I know it's hard to make the call to end it but perhaps you should seriously look into this now for your own sanity ❤️ My situation hasn't changed since we last spoke on here sadly, I'm just plodding along in limbo slowly dying inside 😣 Wish I could do something to help you though, I just hope you've got someone you can talk to about it? Think you need to have at least 51 posts on the site to be able to send/receive PMs, but I'm more than happy to chat if you ever need to talk xx

Whiskey, this might be old news to you, but have you looked at Gottman's "four horseman"? I don't agree with everything Gottman, but he does make some good points about effective vs. ineffective communication. It's clear that both of you have a lot of contempt for each other, and that your WS is very good at stonewalling. If his head was in the right place, he would not lash out at you or give you the silent treatment. Same with you - you are hurting and angry. Perhaps you can point him to the same resource. Ultimately, though, he has not yet embraced the truth of what kind of person he's been, and until then, he will not be able to receive your anger with the compassion that you need.

Devon, PM'd you - think it's gone through 😬

His response was that he won't be destitute as he will go "scorched earth" on me. What does this mean? It feels like a thinly veiled threat to me.

This is not thinly veiled. He means he will fight you tooth and nail for what he wants even if it means the destruction of everything.

My brother was like this in his divorce, from what I understand, he and his AP tried to take everything, full custody, hiding assets, etc. my SIL, she was way to nice for/to him despite it all. I've barely spoken to him for over 20 years because of it (he was the proverbial asshole who cheated and when discovered left his wife for the AP and they tried to take everything with them).

You should probably consult a lawyer.