SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hellfire

How did I insult people here? Demonstrate it. You are playing the victim role but are unable to provide evidence of you or others being insulted. The only one who wrote "It is not your damn business" that, unless gets edited is there and is the only evidence of being rude and it was not written by me but by Annb. Think about it.

I have not insulted anyone. Obviously if you feel you have always done enough in your household, these words are not referred to YOU.

It is like when people complain that pets'owners do not pick after their dog. I don't get offended because I own a dog and ALWAYS pick up after her. But I do understand it is a true that MANY don't and it has an impact also on those who do pick up after their dog.

I should not feel insulted by those who make the STATEMENT, BUT SHOULD ADDRESS THE ISSUE WITH THOSE WHO ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE OWNERS. The others have all their rights to complain. And here it is the same. You should blame those who don't do enough if then many think most people are like that.

I strongly believe you are barking at the wrong tree.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 9:11 PM, Friday, March 22nd]

Three examples...

You've said people here are controlling. You've said we treat our spouse like a puppet. Oh, and asking for a polygraph is equivalent to torture tactics.

I have other examples, but they can't be spoken about on this forum.

Not sure how you think I'm playing a victim. Lol.

My comment wasn't specific to this topic.

Now you are talking about other threads… again, I felt some suggestions were really inappropriate but this has nothing to do with this thread.

Stick to what is written in this thread and there is no track of any insult.

On other threads I felt some ideas were really bossy, for me unacceptable and I expressed that but why are you bringing your frustration of other threads on this one?

If you have any personal issues with me you don’t need to boycott my thread about a topic that has nothing to do with betrayal, you can write to me also privately, I will reply but no need to criticise me here for things said in other contexts, that is really unnecessary vindictive.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 11:47 PM, Friday, March 22nd]

Lol. Ok Molly. Ok.

I always celebrate Women's Day as I've worked hard and did break the glass ceiling at the company I worked in. But I believe the celebration is all about women and not what men do or don't do.

I will not attempt to make any generalizations about who does what in any marriage - we surely don't know! But is up to us, the empowered female (in context of Women's Day) to deal with any imbalance in the marriage to balance the chores accordingly Which may not be "right" to anyone else. And I doubt there is any typical in this. I hate cooking, dh loves cooking so let him at it. He hates cleaning, I clean. No kids at this time so no comment on that. We have 2 vehicles, he gases and washes, I make the service appts. It's whatever works for US and Molly65 you are coming across with defined duties and that is not what works for us at all stages of life and for all skillsets.

I wish I could say this is true, but this happened to my 30-something year old daughter a couple of years ago.

It happened to my daughter, too. She landed an internship at a major corporation after her sophomore year of college. At the last minute, her boyfriend's internship fell through, and she recommended him in case they still had space. He received an offer that was 20% higher than hers, with a more advanced title. They were in the same year at the same university with the same major, with a comparable GPA, being hired to do the same work.

My DD could have complained, but the internship market is very competitive since COVID, and it was her only offer. She needed the job and the employer's recommendation for a scholarship application. Her career could have been over before it began if she filed, because her industry is overwhelmingly a boys' club, and the person who hired her is influential. So she said nothing, but she was quietly and justifiably furious.

How did I insult people here?

'Here' is reasonably interpreted as 'on SI'. If you meant 'on this thread,' that's what you needed to write.

How did I insult people here? Demonstrate it.

Gently, the fact that you need citations is surprising and troubling in view of the fact that you've been given lots of feedback.

A couple of suggestions, member to member: seek first to understand, then to be understood. Follow that by expressing you opinions in ways that show you realize they are your opinions, not universal truths.

For example, I'm with annb - my relationship with my W is something that she and I create pretty much as we like. You do not do yourself or us or anybody else a favor by telling us we have to make it one way or another. You and your H are responsible for creating your own relationship, not anybody else's, and certainly not mine or, apparently, annb's. Talk about Women's Day and connect it to women's equality, and you'll get a lot of support. You have no idea what the men here do or have done WRT women's equality, so if you attack men - and you do - you'll get push back.

That's feedback, Molly. I read you as someone who thinks she has a right to interfere with my life and M in ways that are improper. That's my opinion, though I think a number of readers agree. If you change how you share your opinions, you'll probably get different responses.

Brave Sir Robin,

I am glad more people share experience of gender discrimination because I know it is a big thing and no need to deny it.

My students always make a questionnaire to families about chores, too.

My students make a questionnaire every year within families, included their own. It is an international school with families from many different parts of the world, most of them from Europe, some from I dia, Australia, USA, South America. Most families have both parents who work, they all have a university degree (doctors, architects, lawyers, university lecturers, teachers, engineers, etc). Every year we get roughly the same results.

In 86% of cases, mums take care of the children as soon as they finish work and despite having a cleaner, they are the ones who do most tidying up after eating and organise the laundry and food shopping.

We are happy women are great professionals in careers that some years ago were not as popular for women (engineers and medical doctors).

[This message edited by Molly65 at 8:35 PM, Sunday, March 24th]

Molly65,

You seem to be missing the point that most of us agree that we should celebrate and lift up women. We can agree that women should be given equal pay.

What we don’t agree with is that uplifting women should be at the cost of disparaging men. There are plenty of good men in this world. How does it benefit women to to speak so poorly of men?

The problem, as I see it, is that equal isn't equal isn't equal. It's not black and white.

If a man and a woman each work 40 hours a week, their work might not be very equal. Maybe his is super strenuous and physical, and maybe hers is sitting at a desk. Or vice versa, for that matter. One spouse might simply be more physically worn out when they get home. Time spent physically working doesn't necessarily mean equality, and I think some want it to. My job is not physically demanding at all and I'm in air conditioned/heated comfort, my husband's is VERY physically demanding, it's outside in the freezing cold and blistering heat. If we each spent the same amount of time "at work", we don't have the same ability/energy to offer when we get home. That's just a fact.

There are tons of variables in every relationship. For instance, age. Maybe one is simply older than the other, and not as able to have as much energy at the end of the day after each puts in a shift working. Maybe one is physically handicapped in some way, and can't do as many tasks.

So, couples do what works for them even if you don't think it's "equal".

Walkingoneggshels just said it best.

Maybe his is super strenuous and physical, and maybe hers is sitting at a desk. Or vice versa, for that matter. One spouse might simply be more physically worn out when they get home.

Again, it seems I have not made myself clear and I will try to share the information better, so let me try again. When I showed the results of the questionnaires my students carry out year after year, I spoke of jobs that are pretty similar between husband and wife.
I did not make examples of people working one in a building site lifting weights and the other spouse working behind a desk in air conditioning. In these cases I can understand that and, just for clarity, I am the kind of woman who has always done wiring, plumbing, building, chopping wood, gardening etc with my husband, sharing equally with him these physical chores (even if I am a small woman I am pretty strong).

In this thread I made clear examples of couples of professionals from different countries and cultures both with a master degree, be they medical professionals or engineers (those who sit behind desks and who coordinate projects, not the ones who fix a washing machine, to make an example), lawyers, architects, teachers, university lecturers and I clearly stated that despite BOTH working in similar advantageous and comfortable conditions, the load of home chores falls MAINLY (not entirely!) on the female spouses.

Please I repeat that this is what I have always come across living in different countries and talking to different spouses and observing what was happening around me plus reading the results of family questionnaires.

For example when my children were little, we were living in the UK back then, I have only come across ONE couple where the husband was a stay at home dad and did not have a job, so he cooked, looked after the children, did the majority of the chores and I am sure they were happy and found their way of contributing to the family. So that was an exception, if more men have been or are stay at home spouses and had/have no paid jobs, please come forward, it would be very interesting to hear your story.

Please do not manipulate the information I am providing.

I didn't want to have anyone think I ran away from this discussion.
I really cant argue with peoples lived experiences. I know you cant use celebrities as a basis for the argument. Some people are paid based on commission and some people are paid for performance. Sometimes its is not what you know but who you know. I have a daughter and I would hate for her to experience what you all have described. I do feel like she would not tolerate the treatment if she encountered it. She is very vocal.
I don't want my daughter to become a bitter person who hates people because they appear more "successful" regardless of whether they may or may not deserve it.
Arguments where we choose, because it is a choice, to talk down to others does nothing to solve the situation. If I was being told that I was not pulling my weight in a relationship when I felt that I was, then I think I would rethink that relationship. On the other hand, if I felt like my partner wasn't pulling their weight and I expressed that feeling to them and they chose to ignore it, then I would also rethink the relationship.
Speaking as a man, I don't understand emotional situations as well and my FWS, who is a woman. That doesn't mean that she naturally does better with it but I am more detached. I think of things as more of a do or do not decision and not taking into account feelings.
I sprained my ankle about a month ago. I was in a brace and crutches, Im still in a brace. I have been yelled at by my kids and my FWS several times for lifting things or moving things when the doctor has said to take it easy. Now, I'm not ignoring the doctor or my kids feelings, but my argument is that whether I was healthy or not, alone or not, I am still reliant on myself. Things still have to get done whether I "feel" like it or not.
The dads or husbands that are likely talked about as not staying home when their kids are sick, are likely also the dads or husbands that go to work when they are sick and miserable. Workplaces will tell you to stay home if you are sick, but are also the first to use the time you take off against you for it.
I worked for a company in a managerial position where we had to suspend a person because he was absent too many days in a 6 month period. He was in the hospital several times for multiple days. I know he was there because I would visit him. I argued that the absences should not count against him since they were clearly justified, he had PTO and we were only minorly inconvenienced by his absence. The minor inconvenience was because everyone on our team stepped up to fill the gap that his loss created.
Women do a great deal for their families. Regardless of their role in the household, as breadwinner, homemaker, nurturer, or disciplinarian. The family unit as a whole is important. I think its one of the biggest hurdles that BS struggle with when deciding to R or D.
I do not know any man or woman currently that exists in a household where the husband or father is negligent to his spouse or family. Any woman who says that the man needs to step up needs to be able to accept the same criticism. We all have areas we can improve in.
We are not mind readers, both men and women, they only way that we can support each other is by talking respectfully to one another about what we want or expect from our partners. This is not a one way street though. If you are expecting something you need to be prepared to give of yourself as well. A one sided relationship usually leads to strife or resentment.

What class do you teach? I'm trying to understand why you send home a questionnaire, asking students how their parents divide household chores.

There is still inequality in the world, when it comes to men and women. I believe that is undeniable. I think,had you started a thread to discuss that, it would have been better received. I think a thread, started on International Women's Day, would have been better received, had it been a thread that celebrated women, and our accomplishments. Instead, it seemed to be based on bashing men.

Someone wrote a very thoughtful response on your other thread. I think it might be helpful if you read it. I sat that, Respectfully.

Member to member ...

I am glad more people share experience of gender discrimination....

You want others to experience gender discrimination to prove that you're right? In which ethical system is that way of thinking OK?

because I know it is a big thing and no need to deny it.

Where was gender discrimination denied in this thread?

*****

With regard to feedback, Molly, seek first to understand, then to be understood.

*****

SAHDs are not all that common, but they're not all that hard to find.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:01 PM, Monday, March 25th]

Sisoon

I don’t think there is enough data to say that women make less money than men nowadays. If all things being equal (education, time worked, and length of employment) the pay should be equal. If the pay was not then the women who weren’t paid equal would have to fight the lawyers off that would love to file lawsuits against the companies on their behalf. You would also hear more about settlements in the news.

This was written on page 2 of this thread to which I replied with a quote "

"The gender gap in pay has remained relatively stable in the United States over the past 20 years or so. In 2022, women earned an average of 82% of what men earned, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of median hourly earnings of both full- and part-time workers. These results are similar to where the pay gap stood in 2002, when women earned 80% as much as men."

"Gender Equality Index 2021: Health

About 91 % of women with children spend at least an hour per day on housework, compared with 30 % of men with children. The latest available data shows that employed women spend about 2.3 hours daily on housework; for employed men, this figure is 1.6 hours."

So if it offends people to do research, I guess I am not the problem.

This is about Women's day

International Women's Day (IWD) is a global day celebrating the social, economic, cultural, and political achievements of women. The day also marks a call to action for accelerating gender parity. Significant activity is witnessed worldwide as groups come together to celebrate women's achievements or rally for women's equality.

Marked annually on March 8th, IWD is one of the most important days of the year to:

celebrate women's achievements

educate and awareness raise about women's equality

call for positive change advancing women

lobby for accelerated gender parity

I am glad more people share experience of gender discrimination....

You want others to experience gender discrimination to prove that you're right? In which ethical system is that way of thinking OK?

Sisoon, what part of SHARING, not experiencing, you do not understand?

Molly, You wrote 'share experience'. I read that as 'share the experience of being discriminated against.' Do you now write that you meant 'share about the experience'?

You seem to write sentences that can be understood in multiple ways. That's on you, not the reader. The receiver is the only person who can decide what a communication means anyway.

*****

Did you find a post in this thread that denies the reality of gender discrimination? If you have, please cite author and time of the post so others can find it/them too,

*****

International Women's Day (IWD) is a global day celebrating the social, economic, cultural, and political achievements of women. The day also marks a call to action for accelerating gender parity. Significant activity is witnessed worldwide as groups come together to celebrate women's achievements or rally for women's equality.

The problem is that you've written sentences that multiple people have read as attacks on men. That is not part of IWD as it is described in your quote.

*****

To heal, you need to know what you're doing and where you are. You are obviously not in touch with what you're doing - attacking everybody who says something you don't like.

People here can help you, but you have to take that help in. You don't seem to be doing that.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 9:50 PM, Monday, March 25th]

I have refrained from responding and in fact have typed up 2 prior responses and deleted them as I wasn't following by own mantra (be kind always, no matter)

This whole balance and women's equality thing is just silly.

We as women are responsible for our own equity. If we aren't being treated fairly then we must responsible d as such and demand better. I for one have always been confident that I am a hard worker and high performer. If I ever felt unfairly compensated I have demanded better or moved to a higher reward role. ALWAYS. From high school and working ar Walmart to today. I remember in high school getting a review at Walmart and an insulting raise. I went back toy superiors and stated with proof of my higher performance and reasons why I deserved a much higher compensation. There was no question and a significant raise was given. I have done the same throughout my career and yes at times that meant moving on. In my current role it has meant a couple of bonuses that others on my team are clueless about.

As far as fair and even as gender roles in the home if you find it unfair well..... life isn't fair and if you don't ask for better do NOT expect it.

My H & I have never defined chores by gender or norms. Personally I love yard work and being outside. I have historically been the mower maker trimmer and planter. Now with my autoimmune disease I cannot overdue or am put of commission for a week or more. So H does the weedeater bit I usually do the rest. I do all the laundry. He married me knowing I do not.iron. He has always had to dress for work. He either does his own ironing invests in high quality clothing that doesn't need it or takes to the dry cleaners.
I HATE cleaning. So we live in a not particularly clean home? It's dusty. Some windows always need washed. But I love to cook and will happily try any recipe he finds.
I do not consider thing to be unequal and know if I asked H to do anything he would.

Inequity in your personal situation is your personal problem. Inequity in work is something that shows how important it is to self advocate and keep track of your accomplishments to demand better from your leaders. In fact I would encourage anyone that feels unfairly compensated to kindly with proof demand better. Often leaders will happily go to bat for you if you are truly a valuable team member.