SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Well, you do strike me as the kind of person who does not know when to quit.

There was a post on page 2 saying that you wanted to "stay in Limbo"--it was from Bigger I believe. I definitely do NOT think you want to stay in Limbo, I do believe that instead, you are so afraid of D that the Limbo you have been in somehow seemed a lot less scary.

I have excellent reason to fear divorce, it is the source of the greatest trauma of my life, before the affair. People keep telling me my kids will be fine, but I wasn’t. Sure, I survived. But it scarred me, left me disassociated for years until I got deeply depressed, at least then I felt something. My brother has been chronically depressed and lost his career to it. My parents’ divorce was like a familial nuclear war and me and my siblings were ravaged by it. Telling me that this might be better for my kids is really hard for me to believe. It might be true, and my experience may be abnormally bad. But I worry that we down play the effect of divorce on kids to make it easier on the adults.

My parents divorced fucked me up. It really did.

But..what fucked me up even more? My mom staying with the next man she married. He was abusive..in every way. That traumatized me.

Infidelity is abuse.

She had a 3 year affair. Then, after months if "trying," she went fishing for a new AP.

Had this situation with car guy not have happened, I could understand sitting in your pain while she flounders about. But it did happen.

Infidelity is abuse.

(And I swear OG, if you bring up something like he had to fall first before he came back his true self, I will not talk to you for at least 3 hours wink )

DAMN IT. I had already copied and pasted and was ready to go... And then I saw this.

You know it's true, though. He's more powerful for having survived it.

I worry that we down play the effect of divorce on kids to make it easier on the adults.

People who have a smidge of emotional intelligence (like you) can navigate D so that it's not as traumatic for the kids as it used to be. Like nesting, which you plan on doing, right? They don't have to be uprooted, change schools, go back and forth, have two rooms, etc. You might even be amicable enough with the XW to celebrate holidays as a family. I have a couple of friends in my circle who do that. It's impressive.

My parents divorced fucked me up. It really did.

But..what fucked me up even more? My mom staying with the next man she married. He was abusive..in every way. That traumatized me.

I’m so sorry, HF.

Honestly it just freaks me out more thinking about who she might bring into the kids lives if I do divorce her. I think she’s terrified to be alone, which means she would likely quickly rebound, and I don’t think her options or decision making is going to be very good.

There is just too much here for me to try to control. But today it feels heavy to pursue my own good at the potential expense of my children’s well being.

This is ridiculously hard right now.

Is that because you were not comfortable discussing or is it because they did not occur. I don’t recall, have you and you wife seen a therapist together.

My wife and I have gone thru a plethora of marriage counselors. Most have been incompetent. Our current one seems good, but it’s just been chaos between her and me for a long time now, sessions have not been productive. We switched to just focusing on EMDR with this person with the idea of coming back together after each of us personally desensitizing, but she kept doing shitty things, and this mechanic episode is truly crushing, bringing a new instance of disloyalty into the mix. It does not look like we will be coming back to do more MC with this guy, fair to say.

I don’t talk much about conversations between me and my wife because they don’t happen. She has never once initiated a conversation about the A. She quickly shuts down if I do, and in the past had a strong tendency to DARVO me even. I know it’s all wrong and it’s all fucked. But between the fears I’ve already described and the fact that she’s been really good at DARVO’ing me and playing the victim for a couple decades, this is all really messing with me.

DAMN IT

Highlight of the day, right there.

That was my worst fear (divorce) that's what kept me in my M so long. I knew it would mess the kids up, I mean how could it not? Divorce is traumatic too. I knew without a doubt that if I stayed in my M I would always feel the way I did. We would still have the same issues and his personality disorder/NPD tendencies still wrecking havoc. For some the reason to get a D is to save ourselves. I couldn't have been a good parent in the situation I was in. We had fights in front of the kids it was very toxic. My kids aren't around any toxicity now, well when they are with me anyways.

My daughter was affected the most by the D even though at one point she voiced that I should leave. My xWS makes sure to let me know that I caused my daughter's struggles from deciding to D. Not an easy decision to make or implement and live with consequences even though it was a good decision for me and my mental health.

You will know when it's time to D. It becomes harder to stay in the M than leave is how I would describe it.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 9:03 PM, Tuesday, April 2nd]

Highlight of the day, right there.

I was a young adult, married with small children, when my parents divorced. They both remarried and moved away from my hometown. My siblings have moved away, so all of a sudden the underpinnings of my life were gone. There was no one for me to go home to. I could visit my parents, but I did not even know their new spouses well enough to feel invited to stay with them. Visiting them meant I stayed in a hotel. The reason you need to be extremely careful in how you and your wife handle this is because you’re going to yank the rug out from under these kids regardless of how you try. The best thing you can do is stay very close by so that they can move easily between houses. You don’t want them to have to be invited to your house or to your wife’s house. They need to know that the doors are wide open anytime they want to go where they want to go. That means co-parenting. Kindness above all else.

You could probably get 50/50 custody. It's also possible the teens will choose to live with you. You will be a constant person in their lives,and will be able to keep an eye on things.

Personally, I feel you have an excellent case for full custody..her giving her affair partner your teen daughter's phone number,and knowing they were conversing,privately is dangerous behavior. I know you don't like to hear it. She put your daughter in a potentially dangerous situation for an older man to groom her..at worse. At best, she was encouraging your daughter to develop a relationship with the OM, because she(ww) saw him as a potential father figure for your daughter.

How old is your youngest?

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:43 PM, Tuesday, April 2nd]

I can give some perspective on being a child of divorce, also being near 50 (bleh!) it was probably the best thing that happened to my young self. Without typing a book, mom was nuts and dad got me away from that.

Also, not typing a book, if the kids see you as the stable one and mom as "not quite right" they may appreciate the safe haven with you. Even if they still love her and spend time with her. Something to think about, that your particular trauma regarding divorce is not destined to be your kids experience.

If you do go forward with trying with WW again, you just can’t keep the same approach that you have been. It’s not working. Hell, you shouldn’t even be having to "work" at it, it should all be her. But that’s not going to happen that way here. I can’t tell you what will work because I really don’t know. In your shoes at this far along, I would be throwing the gauntlet down and tell her factually, these are the things you must do to prevent me divorcing you. Completely spelled out, line by line. What other option have you not tried?

This is ridiculously hard right now.

It really is a lot, Ink. And you're doing it alone (ish - we are here of course) because you can't trust her to be your teammate on this, and I get that that makes it scarier. It's the reason you're here and it's the reason you're stuck. Please be kind to yourself.

I don’t talk much about conversations between me and my wife because they don’t happen. She has never once initiated a conversation about the A. She quickly shuts down if I do.

Absolutely nothing turns on this, but as you know trying to understand your communication patterns have long been my pet issue and to be frank, you seem more open about this right now than you have been previously. Perhaps because this really is you letting go of the outcome. I'm curious as to whether you guys talk about other stuff? Like obviously you talk, but I mean stuff beyond kids and logistics etc. Is the no talking thing a recent development (spurred by shame surrounding the A, etc) or has it always been the norm and the A has just drawn how unacceptable it is to you to the forefront. Does she have other people in her life - friends/siblings etc. - that has vulnerability with? Would she even know what vulnerability looked like?

That was my worst fear (divorce) that's what kept me in my M so long. I knew it would mess the kids up, I mean how could it not? Divorce is traumatic too.

Thanks for the vulnerable honesty.

Without typing a book, mom was nuts and dad got me away from that.

My dad made himself a clear and present danger to my life by taking me as an 11 year old kid and driving me an hour home while he had a blood alcohol level that would have killed a small horse. Dad was a cheater, addict, embezzler, but he was still my dad. And he was supposed to be with my mom. That’s what my teenage mind knew and was tormented by not being true anymore.

Kids deserve (when I use this word, I really mean it) to have two loving stable parents. Life doesn’t acquiesce many times. I can’t give that to them. Maybe I need to stop pretending like I can.

Is the no talking thing a recent development (spurred by shame surrounding the A, etc) or has it always been the norm and the A has just drawn how unacceptable it is to you to the forefront. Does she have other people in her life - friends/siblings etc. - that has vulnerability with? Would she even know what vulnerability looked like?

Stonewalling and rugsweeping have been long time tenants in my marriage. Deep talks have been few and far between. A key skill that she has is over listening to draw other people out. It creates the appearance of intimacy, but after a while if you are on the other side of that you begin to notice that you are always the one sharing, and she never does. And then that gets kind of old. And she starts to feel resentment that it’s one sided, that I’m not asking the right "curious questions" to draw her out. My guess is that POSOM had the same "life skill", she has described him as even more conflict avoidant than she is, if that is even possible. So she pushed into his life with her over-listening, and then he mirrored that and I think it was like putting a piece of chocolate cake in front of an anorexic, and she just binged.
But besides that fantasy intimacy, no, I don’t think she has anyone she is genuinely intimate with. I have described before the "energy vampires" that she tends to attract as friends, definitely no intimacy in those relationships. Definitely not in her family. So no, I don’t think she knows what intimacy in a real life relationship looks like. Maybe the closest thing is my sister, but I have my questions there as well.

This is another reason I want D. I want this. I want to stop talking to all of you with all of this (no offense) and have a partner who will listen and share equivalently. And listening to you all, some of you have that. I want that.

What your dad did was awful.

Ih..yes,kids deserve that. They don't have that now. They haven't for a long time.

You can't do it by yourself. You've been trying. You can't make it work with a woman who won't even discuss your pain,or what she has done. You can't make it work with a woman who deliberately sabatoges the marriage. I know some say she doesn't do it on purpose. I don't agree. Car guy was deliberate. She knew what she was doing. IIRC, she told you he was bad news,and she wanted to stay away from him. So..she knew.

You can still show them what a healthy relationship looks like. You're young. You will fall in love again. Your happiness isn't over.

You will be ok. You really will.

You are a better father than your father was. My mom was awful. Truly. I'm a better mother. I'm not perfect, but I get up every day, and do my very best for my kids. They know, when their head hits the pillow, that mom is their biggest fan. I would bet my farm that your kids feel the same.

Divorce will look different for your kids, because you will make sure of it.

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:15 PM, Tuesday, April 2nd]

This is another reason I want D. I want this. I want to stop talking to all of you with all of this (no offense) and have a partner who will listen and share equivalently. And listening to you all, some of you have that. I want that.

You'll have that. I bet my next paycheck you'll have that. I know everything sucks right now and you're in a lot of pain, but I also can't help but feel relief that you'll soon be detached from dysfunction, and excited for you that you'll get to experience a healthy relationship.

about the divorce thing

my parents DIDN'T divorce though my father cheated. Instead we got toxic rug sweeping. Every year since then (35 years now) has gotten progressively worse in terms of my relationship with them. I can’t see my mother (whom I would like to have a relationship with) without exposure to my father who I am so angry at I can barely function. But we all sit there on easter sunday like everything is peachy. It took me hours to settle down the rage after sitting with them this sunday. The farce marriage is not the stable base you think it is. You deserve to be happy. you are their role model.

I’m not saying divorce is some great idea. I have literally zero idea what is best for you. I just hope you aren’t assuming the alternative to divorce is better than it actually is.

Divorce, under most circumstances, deeply hurts children. It takes away their sense of stability and routine. They don’t necessarily see the "stable" parent vs the unstable one. They see two parents and safety in a family. Marriages full of pain and strife also hurt a child. I know. My parents had one. It affected me. I don’t know if they had divorced whether it would have been better for me. I do know that I disliked and resented my father for years for not being a good husband. But, one time they were planning to divorce and I was devastated, scared. I imagined both of them with another partner and it made me sick. 🤷‍♀️ I was about 16, not young. The truth is, no one knows what divorce or witnessing a rocky marriage does to a child. It’s all pain. What’s worse? Likely depends on the individual child. 🤷‍♀️ you’re not wrong for considering them in this process. I so suspect you’re like me, the kind of parent that could only truly be at peace knowing he is doing the absolute best he can for his children and it would likely kill you to see them suffer if you could prevent it. I don’t envy your choice here and I’d certainly never judge whatever you choose. Just wanted to let you know that I get how terrible it all is and there is no obvious correct choice to make.

I’ll also add, my parents stayed together for 53 years until my dad passed away. My mom was heartbroken and misses him to this day. It took awhile, a long while, but they developed a good marriage. In my mom’s words "we just didn’t give up on each other and always knew there was more good than bad". 🤷‍♀️ as a grown woman who almost hated her father for years, it still tears me up. I am happy they made it.

Also wanted to add, that I too understand that simply not being at fault for the pain your kids are or will experience doesn’t negate the relentless pain you’d feel seeing your kids suffer. It not being your fault doesn’t make it easy to watch. My kids are adults and to this day there is little I wouldn’t do to negate any suffering life throws at them. Fault doesn’t matter. My prayers for you is that you find the best solution to this nightmare for you, I know that by default that will also include your children. It would be nice if crystal balls could point you in the best direction.