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Thank you, it is useful to get some outside perspective as I don’t really want to tell people. I was too open before.

I am honestly quite forgetful and scatty, always been like that but I manage ok. So that is not me exaggerating and it is annoying to live with but I try hard and I am so much better at trying to organise myself than I was before.

Thank you, I just doubt myself a lot. Like yesterday I was really set in thinking about leaving as I was so annoyed about the car as I need this to get to work, to take the kids places to go shopping and even though I know he didn’t really mean it, I didn’t get why he would say it. Today after the usual, it is all my fault routine and that i am damaging the children, he forgave me and has been so helpful with the kids etc.

I also reminded him that we spend a lot of money on alcohol a month, which he said he needed to put up with me. I know I am not perfect and my disorganisation can be infuriating but you are all right I deserve to be treated with respect. I just feel sometimes that I am as bad as he is, because I get angry and annoyed and then misquote him. Anyway thanks it is just helpful for me to get some outside perspectives even though I know it is just mine.

he forgave me

The cheater forgave you…

*sigh*

It feels like manipulation, how nice of him to twist it and have you believing that you did something worth forgiveness.

No man worth respecting

1. is going to take away necessary family transport if he ca help it.

2. Is going to to say to his playing kids "you hear that? Moms going to divorce me"

3. Is going to constantly play mind games blaming you for everything or forgetfulness.

4. Is going to blame you for the consequences of his actions

He is not healthy, please take care of yourself.

I also reminded him that we spend a lot of money on alcohol a month, which he said he needed to put up with me.

He likes to tell you that you're the whole problem, and you're hellbent on agreeing with him and defending him to us. I bet his cheating was your fault too.

Lemonpie, as someone who is also in Europe and whose XWH was a high earner, I really feel for your situation. I’ve heard similar things - the stress of his work and being the breadwinner always always trumps the fact the I did / do most of the childcare. And of course, his earnings gave me ‘a great life’ (apart from the cheating of course, but who’s counting??)

It’s really hard. When they are working long hours and never think, if BS wasn’t at home with the kids, I would be paying a full-time nanny / rushing back from the office to pick them up from school / taking a day off when a child falls sick etc etc. When they don’t cook or clean but conveniently forget that if BS wasn’t doing that work, they would be forking out for takeaway meals and a cleaner. It sucks when your contribution is not seen, much less valued.

It is manipulative at the end of the day. I think sometimes it’s done to exert control, sometimes simply to make themselves feel ‘better’ or ‘stronger’. I have seen relationships which are much more equal - where either both partners arrange work schedules to accommodate the children, or the one that steps back from a career to do more childcare is actually noticed and appreciated. I hope one day to find such a relationship for myself!

[This message edited by Perdita1 at 12:26 AM, Wednesday, April 10th]

WS here. In our story, the biggest thing that helped my BS to move into a healthier mindset was having me pull my head out of my ass. It's very difficult to NOT go into blame mode when the person you are upset with hasn't really grasped, or more importantly, OWNED, what they have done. If your WS is still getting defensive, and not really in a place where he is taking steps to try and understand what he did, why he did it, and what to do about it, then the issue is not resolved for you, which is why it keeps coming up again.

my husband was saying that I had a great life and most women would kill to have a high earning husband, not have to work full time etc.

There is no remorse in that statement. There is no ownership of what he did or what it meant. That is pure entitlement. And entitlement is the foundation upon which affairs are formed. Which means that he is still not really "safe" to be with, which again, is probably why throwing it back in his face is something that comes to mind for you. I think your response to him was both accurate and appropriate, and it would be helpful if he took it to heart rather than getting defensive.

I get it... WS's wallow in shame after D-day, almost all of us do. We try to convince ourselves that this is us "loving" our spouses, but in truth, it's still "all about" the WS. Shame is about the self, not someone else, and as long as we are buried in shame, we cannot see or hear anyone else, and empathy does not exist. Shame is an important motivator, but it is a stop along the way, not the destination. Until he gets past this, then he is still in a self-focused mode. It's wise to keep your guard up.

I wish you luck. Encourage him to get some IC, go to support groups, read some self-help books (Rising Strong by Brene Brown is great) and work on letting go of that defensiveness. If he does have an IC, I would tell him to ask the IC to help him discover the cause of his defensiveness, that's a great place to start.

When he's safe, you'll know it, because the anger and defensiveness go away, and empathy and self-respect come back. He's not there yet.

EDIT: BTW, I should have mentioned that I did not read other replies before replying myself, so sorry if I missed any key conversation details. I just responded to the original post.

[This message edited by DaddyDom at 1:43 AM, Wednesday, April 10th]

When he's safe, you'll know it, because the anger and defensiveness go away, and empathy and self-respect come back. He's not there yet.

I don’t think he is going to make it to that destination. He hasn’t even seen the need to buy the train ticket and he is using everything in his ability to make sure she can’t leave. Trying to take away her car and working on turning the kids against her.

Op, You needed to leave yesterday. Do you have family that can help you?

WTF

I also reminded him that we spend a lot of money on alcohol a month, which he said he needed to put up with me

He literally never takes responsibility. Even if you are the most difficult person in the world to live with (which likely is not at all the truth) it is laughable that he has no choice but to drink. This is crystal clear wayward thinking and there is huge risk staying with him. It looks to me like he completely and intentionally destroys your self esteem to allow him to be in control of everything. You are so beaten down and gaslit that you have begun believing it yourself. You are different from others but not difficult. Forgetful and scatty? I promise you there are tons of men who find that cute and endearing, not use it to tear you down. Focus on loving and respecting yourself and don’t believe a damn thing out of his mouth. You deserve so much better and someone who loves you as you are!

Thank you all so much, I really appreciate the replies although hard to hear. I am quite a laid back, scatty but gentle person but I have this fire in me that comes out as angry outbursts and I think my husband has often used these against me. It takes a lot for me to get angry but I noticed with my husband over the years it was happening a lot and I think he is quite demanding and as I said he can be really blunt and mean in what he says not just to me this is a problem in other areas. He is aware of it and sometimes can really show that he is ashamed of it but I react in explosive way to these. I need to work on that. I also am a very disorganised person and tbf to my husband he has helped me massively with this over the years.

I realise he uses money against me. He would love if I gave up my job but since the A I am staying strong in this. I often hear how he has to ‘subsidise me’ but I only spend money on food and the kids and as I said we live in a very expensive area and he does pay the majority of the bliss which would be a real struggle without him. We are in debt but he won’t tell me how much he makes a lot of financial decisions without consulting me or telling me after the fact. Before the A he would often tell me we were broke which would make me really worry and live so frugally (in second hand clothes) but then splash cash when people came over which would get me angry and confused. He spent money on the Ap taking her out to meals etc which really annoyed me as he was telling me we had no money for some basic house things. It is all a lot to get over.

And other times he is really generous and spends loads on me and the kids.
I also don’t think any of this is done on purpose. He is a good person and I feel most connected to him when he shows these signs of vulnerability.

Are you saying you feel closest to him when he's abusing you?

If so, that is a real problem. If so, you need to learn to treat yourself better.

I'm very sorry about bringing that up, but I think you need to become aware that he is not treating you the way one decent partner treats the other.

How old are your kids? Can they take care of themselves? Do you have family close to you?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:02 PM, Wednesday, April 10th]

What have you learned or what insights have you received from the replies to your post thus far?

Oh LemonPie, you're so abused that you can't see it clearly. As someone who's been abused in many ways (and dealt out her own share of it too), I'm putting a list of quotes from your posts and categorizing them by the types of abuse your WH displays. It breaks my heart to hear you gaslight yourself into thinking any of his ill treatment has anything to do with you.

Emotional
-comes out as angry outbursts and I think my husband has often used these against me
-he can be really blunt and mean in what he says
-we spend a lot of money on alcohol a month, which he said he needed to put up with me (his drinking is not YOUR problem!)
-My husband has a tendency to lash out verbally
-he was trying to say yesterday that I was completely to blame, that I act like a child and that I am damaging the kids
-He got angry and said I was always going out recently neglecting my chores and being selfish which wasn’t even true etc. (You aren't neglectful- you're managing a lot and make normal mistakes)

Mental
-He said this in an angry tone in front of my son which stressed him out (in front of the kids??)
-When the kids were in the room my husband was saying that I had a great life and most women would kill to have a high earning husband, not have to work full time (like saying for you to shut up and let him be a jerk to you)
-respond to them and the bring up the affair. He says get over it or leave (is this what a loving husband says??? Love is patient, love is kind... even if you're not religious, it's a good objective description of how YOU deserve to be loved.)
-My husband will also often blame both of us for the children and their emotional reactions. Yes we have had big arguments and I haven’t always regulated myself

Financial
-He would love if I gave up my job
-I often hear how he has to ‘subsidise me’
-We are in debt but he won’t tell me how much
-he makes a lot of financial decisions without consulting me or telling me after the fact
-we spend a lot of money on alcohol a month (money that should be going to the family's welfare)

Physical
-Before the A he would often tell me we were broke which would make me really worry and live so frugally (in second hand clothes) ... as he was telling me we had no money for some basic house things (MATERIAL DEPRIVATION/WANT)
-told me, that I didn’t need access to a car and we should get rid of it and just rely on one car which would be his (how the hell is any public transit really safe these days for women and their small children?? What about a medical emergency for the kids? Endangerment.)

Narcissistic behaviors are also highly present in your WH. I've again listed quotes that indicate narcissistic behaviors below by category:

Love-bombing
-And other times he is really generous and spends loads on me and the kids. (winning you back with his money, honey)
-He spent money on the Ap taking her out to meals etc (impressing her with his cash)
-my husband did give me the money and deep down I knew he didn’t mean what he says and he is stressed being the breadwinner (here comes the shut up money- look, $$, fixes everything! As long as he pays your car to be fixed, he is entitled to his poor treatment of you)

Gaslighting
-I often hear how he has to ‘subsidise me’ (Lemonpie, he's your HUSBAND- it's his job to treat you as "flesh of my flesh" and "bone of my bone"- to care for you like he would his own body. Care for you is not a subsidy, but rather part of the job description of married persons)
-We are in debt but he won’t tell me how much (Withholding information that you need to make clear decisions on your life)
-we spend a lot of money on alcohol a month, which he said he needed to put up with me (you're responsible for his decisions/addictions)
-My husband has a tendency to lash out verbally but I have recently learnt he doesn’t always mean what he says (he is responsible for his mouth- does he lash out verbally to business partners/ people he needs to impress?)
-husband was saying that I had a great life and most women would kill to have a high earning husband, not have to work full time (he's telling you how YOU are ALLOWED to feel)
-he was trying to say yesterday that I was completely to blame, that I act like a child and that I am damaging the kids (oh, yes, it is ALLLLLL your fault! Really?? No one is a perfect parent and you are NOT acting like a child- you are reacting to his abuse!)
-When the truth came out that he was staying with her he said it was because I turned everyone against him and he had no where else to go (You told the truth, how people felt towards him was THEIR choice and NOT your fault).
-He got angry and said I was always going out recently neglecting my chores and being selfish which wasn’t even true etc. (you're not selfish- it's normal to visit friends who support you.)
-he also shifts a lot of blame onto me saying I am not very good at regulating myself I know my difficulties with attention can also be difficult (HOW can you regulate yourself around such an unpredictable, angry, abusive person??)

DARVO (defense, attack, reverse victim and offender)
-he is so full of shame he lashes out at me (reverse and attack)
-him feeling sorry for himself (reversing the victim and offender- he's only a victim of his own decisions)
-he feels it is my fault he has had to move (reverse victim and offender- he could have divorced you instead of moving jobs)
-He will often say to me no one loves me [referring to himself??], and has sometimes blamed me sometimes (reverse victim and offender)
-My husband will also often blame both of us for the children and their emotional reactions. Yes we have had big arguments and I haven’t always regulated myself but he never says I have caused them damage it is always we. (defense)
-When the truth came out that he was staying with her he said it was because I turned everyone against him and he had no where else to go (reverse victim and offender, attacking you)

Grandiosity
-he makes a lot of financial decisions without consulting me or telling me after the fact (disrespect to you- he's so much better than you at financial decisions that you don't deserve to be consulted)
-then splash cash when people came over which would get me angry and confused. He spent money on the Ap taking her out to meals etc (look at me, the fancy host, the exciting affluent lover!)
-my husband was saying that I had a great life and most women would kill to have a high earning husband, not have to work full time (Yes, he's such a prize!! You ungrateful wench!!)

Isolation of victim
-He would love if I gave up my job (isolating you from outside help in co-workers)
-told me, that I didn’t need access to a car and we should get rid of it and just rely on one car which would be his (how the hell are you to parent your kids and earn your money without a car with poor public transit??)

Please go back and reread MIganders post.
Read up on cycles of abuse and narcissistic behaviors. If you don't believe us believe the research.
Lastly you have mentioned him being a physician. They tend to have narcissistic tendencies. They have to, to make it through education training and being able to do what some Drs do day to day. Ask me how I know (see username)

Please read MIgander post again and again. Your WS sounds an awful lot like my xWS who is a diagnosed Narcissist.

Honestly I would detach, find your power and leave.

Dr. Ramani has some free YouTube videos on narcissistic abuse. There's a really good series she did on the vocabulary, like gaslighting, trauma bonding, etc. I suggest that you look at a few of them. She also did a really good one on trauma bonding that explains the brain chemistry behind what is going on, but it's in easy to understand language so you don't need a PhD to get it.

I just want to say thank you. I really appreciate the time and effort.

My children are young 6 and under. I live in a different country to my family who are very supportive but I would need my husbands permission to move or have to go through a lengthy court case. I have some friends here but they have their own young families and busy lives.

I completely get what you are all saying. I guess it is hard to convey the complexity of a relationship through an online platform. I don’t think my husband has NPD. I did think it at the time of the affair as he was acting awful. He even told me at the point of discovery ‘I should have ignored it’. However, the more people found out as I said I went a bit crazy he definitely woke up from whatever fog he was in.l and that is when the shame kicked in strong as he often pre this he looked down on people who would cheat.

He has capacity for empathy for other people which I have definitely witnessed and we go through phases of really good times like is happening now. I also definitely fight back and can say mean things too and can be forgetful and thoughtless of him. He has treated me very badly, he can be moody and when anxious controlling but I am not afraid of him which I think I was preaffair. I used to really just worried by these moods or maybe I believed when he said we were broke. where I think now is a stress response to feeling overwhelmed by being the breadwinner.

Anyway I have really appreciate your thoughts and reflections and will look into the cyclical of abuse. The best advice I have had on here is to focus on me which I am doing so thank you.

[This message edited by Lemonpie at 8:23 AM, Thursday, April 11th]

He has capacity for empathy for other people

This is my wife. She can be there and support others in need, but not for me, at least not to the extent that I need. This is why I believe she is hampered by her shame. She never really says anything derogatory about me, she will just go into the I'm just a piece of shit mode. Now, if she was telling me thing that your husband says to you, my dear, the gloves would come off. You don't disrespect me with an affair and then go down the path of blaming me or treating me like I should be grateful. HELL NO!!!

I often hear how he has to ‘subsidise me’ but I only spend money on food and the kids and as I said we live in a very expensive area and he does pay the majority of the bliss which would be a real struggle without him.

This is terrible. When you are family, money is not individual’s money. You but food and who is eating the food? Are you subsidising him with regards to food? Or are you simply contributing to the family in your capacity?

Entitled, wealthy people do not realise how much their life would change if others weren’t there to pick up the children from school, if they had to run home to be with them every day.

I am sorry to say but your WS is really hurtful and has no remorse for treating you like a servant. That is not a balanced relationship.

God me again, another argument. So my Wh comes home stressed from work. He feels I can be cold and I kinda felt that I wasn’t as communicative about mine and the kids day.

Twenty mins then he comes in and starts to say no one loves me etc which I hear a lot, there isn’t a lot of love, I need love we are just going back to our old ways before the affair you are not showing me much love. I ignore it and go about getting the kids to bed which to be fair he helps with etc. I am not the most physically affectionate person but we did have a good sex life in comparison to my friends but I am not good at holding hands or giving hugs.

We sit down to watch something, and he starts on the same thing. You don’t love me, only my first child loves me etc (I will edit this later). I say what about your mum, she doesn’t love me, you don’t love me, you don’t show me a lot of love etc etc. I get annoyed and turn to him and say you didn’t show me a lot of love when you fucked someone else. He turns off the tv. He won’t let me continue to watch it. ‘He calls me the c word, tells me to F off and that there isn’t a lot of love he doesn’t love me. I said is any mention of the a going to get this response he said yes. I get up annoyed and leave and tell him he cannot treat me like that. I calm down and come back and apologise for saying what I said about the fucking someone else but he cannot speak to me like that. He looks at me aghast and says you never properly apologise for what you do it is always with a but.

Ok I have written that down in real time so I am not misquoting him. That isn’t right is it? I don’t know if we are just both toxic as I shouldn’t have said the you fucked someone else bit.