SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi tonygameel,

This is a good place to be as you have the collective experience of some of the best people in coping with infidelity.

As for my two cents:

But the truth was she went back to his apartment a second time a week later. This time she was sober and with intentions of finishing what they started.

To this day, I don't know if I have all the details about what exactly they did (or even if there were more encounters).

She took her clothes off. Gave him oral sex. (which in many ways is harder for me to stomach)

She was adamant that actual sex never happened - swore by it - but the fact that she'd perform that act on this guy is something that gives me literal nightmares. I'm so embarrassed, shamed and dishonored by it, I can't share this with anyone.

I feel this is where you are stuck.

Part of my story is eerily similar to yours in that my WW got involved with a guy, met him in a private place on a couple occasions, admitted giving him oral, trickled truth, swears there was no PIV intercourse.

In my mind there HAS TO BE more than she admitted. How could she possibly change so drastically from the woman I knew for 22 years and do this crap.

I have spent countless hours going over texts, travel logs, google maps and all kinds of exercises to make it make sense or find a smoking gun.

The TT is what caused more truama than the acts although that was more than enough. This is why you feel the PTSD. You are still fearful that there is something else or that she will do this again.

Trust me, I understand. I still have my times of rage and disgust and sadness as I approach the 2-year mark. I have come to accept that the damage done to me will always be a part of me.

However I will share what has helped me the most.

There are some (former) wayward wives on these boards that have given me some understanding of my wife. The crazy thought processes that led her to those actions and the guilt and shame that resulted from them.

Hikingout, Walkinoneggshelz, Bravesirrobin just to name a few, in sharing their stories and accepting responsibility for their actions and wayward thoughts..as well as digging deep to own their shit gave me the opportunity to see my wife as a flawed human and not this angelic being that I had created in my mind. They were capable and willing to do the work to change from the people who did those disgusting acts to people they feel they are ok with being.

That is the one key to the whole thing....YOU have to be capable of looking at your wife for what she IS as opposed to what she WAS...while maintaining the the rationality to know that she is capable of the acts she committed.

In order to do this, you can NEVER take divorce off the table.

Any marriage is susceptible to divorce and should be treated as such. In doing so you can understand that it is fragile and place the proper value on it and protect it.

My wife asked for the grace to work on her flaws and shortcomings and promised she would be a better wife. You know what? She is.
You know what else? I have a packed bag in my truck as we speak and a plan in place that I can bail at any moment if the need arises.

She has been told, that at the slightest hint of infidelity, proof or no proof, I'm gone.
She has been told, that if there are any lies, about anything, I'm gone.
That is what gives me solace is that I know that I will be OK if there is anymore crap.

But at the same time, I committed to judging my wife based on the person that is in front of me now, how she acts now, how she treats me etc.

Your problem is not with the other guy....your wife committed these acts as a fully functioning adult. You can not absolve her of those responsibilities and paint her as the victim of him. To do so, takes away her agency in the choices that she made. It also takes away her agency in the choice she made to build a family with you.
That IS a choice she made.

It is also a choice YOU made to stay. You have your beautiful kids as a result of that choice. I don't think you regret that choice. I do however think you wonder if you made the best choice for you.

So my suggestion to you is to start looking at your wife and your life through the lens of what you have become and not what your were. Infidelity will always leave scars on the marriage and the spouses. But if you can find beauty in your marriage, you are entitled to enjoy that as well.

Tony,

My story is a long one, but I think the one thing I can offer is what we have in common.

Your issue, I think, is that she told you that she took off her clothes and then gave him oral sex - but that they didn’t have intercourse.

I think your gut tells you this is a lie.

And I agree with your gut.

Here’s why. In my case, I found a letter from a woman thanking my husband for a beautiful evening. He told me they just talked. Then, about two years later he says he kissed her, that’s all. Then years later it was they made out. Then years later it was only oral sex. Then years later it turns out it happened twice, but was only oral sex twice. Now I have the truth, it was sex. This is over the course of 40+ years.

So I get how you’re feeling - your gut is telling you that you know there’s a lie behind this. That’s part of the anger and the pain.

It may very well come down to having her make the choice of your severing the relationship with her vs telling you the truth before you begin to heal. This may sound extreme, but knowing the truth of your life is the only way you can begin to make decisions based on facts and not emotions - logical decisions that help you and your family.

Right now, you’re not emotionally invested in your wife the way you should be, not the way your children deserve, not the way a wife deserves, and most certainly not the way you deserve for a loving relationship in life. The only way to make any progress along those lines is to have that truth, and the only way to get there is to have a VERY honest conversation with her. That conversation must include the consequences of her lies, which should include possible separation, as distasteful as it is for you. It’s real, and it may be the only way you can heal your heart.

You say you can't trust a woman counselor/therapist. What do you fear they'll do?

I think this is hard for women to understand.

As a man, one of the most traumatic aspects of all this is the shame and humiliation. It's one thing to be cheated on, but to be humiliated on top of that made me want to die. I felt completely emasculated - laughed at behind my back. My wife's entire workplace knew that this guy had been playing around with my fiancee (and they all knew we were due to marry soon). I was the joke of the office.

We tried marriage counseling. All female therapists. It was like putting fuel on the fire for me. They just don't get it.

I need to sit down with a man who's got life experience. Someone who can speak to me plainly from one man to another. Unfortunately, the field of psychology seems to be predominantly young females. This is probably driving a lot of guys like me to suicide because there's nobody to turn to. There is literally nobody to talk to. Hence why I'm writing on a forum.

@TrayDee

I feel for you, man.

You're writing this at the 2 year mark. 2 years in from having your life shattered. At the 2 year mark, I was still a blubbering mess. My wife was 8 months pregnant with my first born, and I looked at belly one night and thought, "I have to stop talking about this now for his sake."

I've silently suffered since then. 7 years of dying in silence.

You seem optimistic and you're probably stronger than I am. I never would have imagined that at 10 years in, I'd actually feel the same, if not worse.

Those mind movies about them together in bed - imagining myself messaging her phone saying "I love you" while she's in the very act, and then all the lies and humiliation. It's as real and vivid now as if it happened to me yesterday.

If you can’t get it out of your head, then by definition some part of you loves it, wants it, thinks it needs it. The answer to making it stop is not to think more about it, to live even more in the past, the answer lies in understanding why you want it. That is the point of attack. It’s a very deep question too, that can lead to real personal growth.

You're right.

I do want to be there, because I haven't got closure. I want revenge. I want to right the wrong and deal justice. I know I can't ever get that now, however. So I'm stuck in a forever loop of hating them and hating myself for letting it happen.

I do want to be there, because I haven't got closure. I want revenge. I want to right the wrong and deal justice. I know I can't ever get that now, however. So I'm stuck in a forever loop of hating them and hating myself for letting it happen.

It’s time to start changing your relationship with the past (which means with your memories of the past, since that is the only place that the past lives).

Two books I’d recommend, The Power of Now and The New Earth, both by Elkhart Tolle. One or the other. Neither are about infidelity, yet both directly speak to your situation. I promise it will resonate. They can help kickstart things by setting a context for your current situation, and giving you a goal to pursue. A goal that doesn’t require anything from anyone else, that you 100% control the pursuit of. Nothing from your WS, nothing from the AP. Just you. Not a magic cure…just way better.

If you spend time in the car and listen to audio books, I highly recommend doing that. Perfect deep thoughts for long trips.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 1:53 PM, Thursday, June 27th]

I know you feel emasculated, trust me, and it’s definitely a common thing BHs say after discovering their WW.

First and foremost your W does not define you and more importantly her actions are not a reflection of you.

It’s hard, but you didn’t do anything to cause this and the only one who should be feeling shame are the cheaters.

The OM is just a role. He could have been anyone. The real problem is your WW. All of this anger towards OM is wasted energy.

Your WW was the one who was supposed to protect the relationship. She’s not innocent. She isnt a lamb following the judahs goat to the slaughter. She made the choice to cheat and to marry you after cheating on you. That is where your anger should be directed.

What has she said about this? Has she even acknowledged that she stole your agency? That she tricked you, lied to you, manipulated you and married you under a completely false premise? These are the real issues, not OM.

As a man, one of the most traumatic aspects of all this is the shame and humiliation. It's one thing to be cheated on, but to be humiliated on top of that made me want to die. I felt completely emasculated - laughed at behind my back. My wife's entire workplace knew that this guy had been playing around with my fiancee (and they all knew we were due to marry soon). I was the joke of the office.

That shame and humiliation are yours to resolve. They're in your head, and you have a lot of power to choose what's in your head. The Power of Now may help.

Really, bro, shame and humiliation are in you. Your fiancee's behavior was hers. Your W's behavior is hers. They say nothing about you. I know that's hard to comprehend when you've been betrayed. You did nothing to deserve bein betrayed.

If you want to get through this PTSD, you need a good therapist. Telling yourself you need a good male therapist is not acting in your own best interests.

Think about BWs - virtually all of them go through the same stuff. BHes think they weren't men enough to keep their Ws happy. BWs think they weren't women enough; at least that's what many BWs report.

I do want to be there, because I haven't got closure. I want revenge. I want to right the wrong and deal justice. I know I can't ever get that now, however. So I'm stuck in a forever loop of hating them and hating myself for letting it happen.

You say you want revenge. That's easy to accomplish, though most revenge actions are likely to hurt you. So I expect you do not really want revenge.

You can't right this wrong. The most punishing thing you can do to your W is D, but you won't go there. I get it - D hurts you, too.

So you've boxed yourself into a corner, and you tell yourself stories that will keep you there. And yet you joined SI and posted. That implies you want to get out of the box, out of the corner. That's great. What do you need to hear to strengthen that desire enough for you to act?

No one here knows what's best for you as well as you know yourself. Something is keeping you from taking the best action for you. What are the obstacles?

I know you feel emasculated, trust me, and it’s definitely a common thing BHs say after discovering their WW.

First and foremost your W does not define you and more importantly her actions are not a reflection of you.

It’s hard, but you didn’t do anything to cause this and the only one who should be feeling shame are the cheaters.

The OM is just a role. He could have been anyone. The real problem is your WW. All of this anger towards OM is wasted energy.

Your WW was the one who was supposed to protect the relationship. She’s not innocent. She isnt a lamb following the judahs goat to the slaughter. She made the choice to cheat and to marry you after cheating on you. That is where your anger should be directed.

What has she said about this? Has she even acknowledged that she stole your agency? That she tricked you, lied to you, manipulated you and married you under a completely false premise? These are the real issues, not OM.

That's worth memorizing.

Think of all the energy you use on feeling sorry for yourself. All that energy is available to you for healing. Healing may be R. Healing may mean D. No matter what, though, you'll be better off if you let yourself heal.

What do you want to change about yourself? If you can't effect that change on your own, get good help. It doesn't matter where that help comes from.

This may help: https://survivinginfidelity.com/topics/497843/fear-vs-reality/ - I cite that thread only because it may help you put D on the table. I do not mean to say that you should D. Your problem is what you're telling yourself about your W's betrayal. Resolving that will get you the clarity you need to decide between D & R - but you can make that choice only if you can see yourself living a good life whether you D or R....

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:32 PM, Thursday, June 27th]

Tony,

I understand your desire for revenge I feel it too for OM1 and I had elaborate plans which had a low probability of success.

Is there something you can do from where you are now.

Like expose what he did to everyone who matters in his life his relatives, parents, grandparents. Send a tsunami of emails, letters etc.

Was he married now or did he have a fiance drop a dime.

If he is married hire a PI to see what he is up to in his country, prepare a package to deliver to his W.

Pay a prostitute to seduce him, etc.

Can you get him fired from his job was he in a superior position , management or executive.

Can your WW confess remotely and get him thrown in jail?

Have your WW write out a detailed timeline for the affair, then take her for a polygraph.

The feeling you have partial, minimized or omitted truth is a killer over time.

Did you get tested for STDs? Long term HPV can cause various cancers look it up.

You don't need marital counseling, you need individual counseling until you have a different perspective of yourself.

I used to work with a guy who was married to a very attractive woman, and they had two kids. She was cute, sexy, pleasant. Infidelity just rife in their relationship.

He cheated on her with any willing partner.

There was gossip at work, but not as much as you might think, and everybody thought he was just a shitbag.

The women he was cheating with? Everybody thought they were losers. There was a steady supply of them, he was always looking.

In three years, I never heard a single person laugh at her, speak down about her, or denigrate her in any way.

Someone, a female professional that I worked with, and reported to, actually approached me about someone speaking to her as scandal had built at work. In the end, we did nothing because I didn't know her well enough, and felt it was not my place, I did reach out to someone who knew her better, who said she thought she already knew and had accepted it, but in truth we were just all young and stupid.

Why the long story? Because 36 years later I still remember him as a shitbag, his willing partners as losers, and his betrayed wife as someone doing the best she could with a terrible hand she got dealt.

If I could go back in time, I'd also go up to her door, if I could do it over again, and ring that doorbell, and make sure she knew. Because I'm no longer young, and not quite as stupid as I was then.

But I'd never laugh at her.

One of the women he cheated with was a female colleague, married to a male colleague, nobody ever mocked him, but someone did break off a business relationship with them because of her cheating.

Years later, I had a male business partner in a venture who was cheating on his wife. The three of us partners had lunch and I told the others that he was out, or I was out, and why. He was out, then he lost his job because of it.

I'm willing to bet that there are a bunch of people your wife worked with that remember her very unfavorably, but not you. Keep that in mind, get IC help, build a new perspective of yourself, and consider that divorce might need to be on the table.

Keep reading here, understand you are not alone.

I had the choice to divorce when we had no kids, no property. I made the wrong decision to stay in it, thinking it would get easier over time.

I relate to this and did the same. I stayed "for the kids". Turned out to be far from optimal for me and lived in marital purgatory for a decade before it ended. Knowing what I now know after years of IC and hard work on myself, I was very poorly equipped to handle this betrayal (came from a fractured/abusive & unstable home) without compounding the damage to my soul through poor/self-defeating coping skills and just white knuckled it. I moved on from those dark days and am now in a wonderful and vibrant marriage with a great woman who loves me and loves my kids as her own. You CAN divorce and move on.

I echo the others who have encouraged intensive IC as an investment in yourself. You need to make peace with yourself and own your choices as I did. There are many many tools a good therapist can assist you with to help bring you self realization and actualization that will help aleve this trapped feeling. Please invest in yourself.

One truth that may help you is that though the younger version of yourself did not possess the maturity and hindsight that you now possess,it doesnt make that decision wrong, just not the most optimal in hindsight and thats ok.

Before you move in any direction, stay or go, make peace with yourself and get the professional assistance you need to reach that state.

Strength and peace to you.

BTW, staying was not necessarily the harder choice. Many Betrayeds have elected to leave through D and also paid a terrible price in mental/emotional anguish. I just dont want you to paint leaving (then) as the "easier" choice. Both choices require a ton of healing.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 7:45 PM, Friday, June 28th]

Listen to inkhulk.

Read his threads if you'd like. Your wife was and is the problem. Not her AP.

Tragic that you didn't go through with the annulment.

Reconciliations n doesn't usually involve anything close to revenge or justice unfortunately. It's much too squishy for concepts like that to survive.

I made the wrong decision to stay in it, thinking it would get easier over time.

You made the right choice at that time based on what you knew and what you thought. You thought that things get easier over time, which was perfectly reasonable to think, and so it was perfectly reasonable to try to stay.

Never judge the quality of a decision on the outcome. Judge decisions based on what you thought, on what you knew, on what you felt, on what you believed, at that time.

To quote Yogi Berra, making predictions is hard, especially about the future.

If you had divorced her, you may have walked out of the courthouse into the street and got run down by a truck. Staying married may have saved your life. Who’s to know? 😎

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 3:58 PM, Saturday, June 29th]

I feel for you brother.One and half years of pain.I am looking for revenge as well. I feel for you, truly, big time.

[This message edited by kkkkk at 10:56 AM, Sunday, June 30th]

Kkkk

I remember you. You’re an abuser. You already beat up your wife, what’s stopping you from doing that to AP? He might fight back? You actually may face consequences for assaulting someone?

She cheated on you but you’re an abuser. I don’t care what happened, you beat your wife and that is vile, and here you still full of hate.

Take note OP, holding on to the hate and the desire for vengeance only makes you worse.

HellIsNotHalfFull,

Who are you to judge? I am not an abuser. It happened only once when I was devastated and drunk. You DO NOT KNOW who the violent one is in my marriage. I didn't mention how many times she started hitting me in the past. She has BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).

So please be kind, and if you don't have anything constructive or helpful to say, please STFU. Thank you.

Sure, only one time and you were drunk. Said every wife abuser ever. When I was a cop I lost count of how many times I heard that.

Nothing, ever gives you the right to beat your wife. She’s been hitting you and had BPD? Then just divorce and leave.

You need serious help, you are still justifying beating your wife.

You never should have laid your hands on her. Cheating, BPD whatever.

So tough, but you didn’t throw down on AP?

I standby my statement, you are the epitome of what happens when fear and hate consume someone. A bully who beats those weaker then him.

You got your vengeance when you beat up your wife, and here you are still wanting more.

I am not justifying it, you are right about not laying a hand on a woman, I agree.
I've been sorry and guilty.
YES, I would beat the shit out of AP if it does not affect her job and get her fired for doing workplace affair.
And it's a big company with over thousands of employee, there is no way I can find him without wife arranging a meeting with AP.
And about hatred and stuff, don't be a hypocrite, I saw your comments below many other posts. So please go and fill up the half-full hell.

You’re not sorry or guilty, you literally just tried to justify it. You only hit her because she hit you or she has BPD or whatever. Oh, and the classic, you only did it because you were drunk.

You’re making a lot of excuses for not confronting AP, you know the truth as to why you won’t. You absolutely could if you tried.

I am self aware to know my own demons. There was a time where if I could I would put AP in the dirt. That is the truth. He was very involved in my family’s life and he physically hurt my son, and used my kids to get with my wife, that alone is enough. I am no longer in that place.

I know the consequences, I know the very real punishment someone suffers when they remove someone from this world. I also know in the real world what I want for justice will never happen. I will go to jail for the rest of my life and it’s not worth it. More importantly, it won’t help my kids. Even if I could get away with it, my kids would be more hurt by it.

You should know, once you cross that line there is no going back. Once you beat your wife you’re a wife beater. There is no way to change that.

End of the day, AP isn’t the problem. Just a scumbag taking advantage of no strings attached sex. Nothing special about that at all

As I’ve been saying, it’s pointless to waste time on AP. The real problem is the person who was supposed to protect the marriage.

[This message edited by HellIsNotHalfFull at 2:54 PM, Sunday, June 30th]

The Hell guy,

I'll share what exactly I sent to her today and this is the end of the conversation with you.

"First of all, I want to tell you that I love you, I love you very much.

We've been through so much together over the past seven years, so many great memories.

I'm writing this to you today to calmly discuss my feelings and some thoughts. I hope you will take this seriously and read it carefully.

Regarding the betrayal, I really want to let it go and not waste any more time and energy on such a horrible thing. But it's completely beyond my ability to cope. It tortures me in some way every day. I don't want to carry this hatred and grievance with me for years and be with you, as it wouldn't be fair to either of us or our future children. It would rob us of tons of happiness. So I want to ask you to face this issue with me and find a way to resolve it. For me, the only solution now is for me to meet him and for you to tell me the whole truth.

What also infuriates me is that after I found out, you were chatting with him happily, and he arrogantly said, "What does he want? Beat you up or beat me up?" And you both continued to contact each other despite knowing how much it hurt me. This shows that neither of you had any remorse. I also have the following suspicions that you are still lying:

It didn't happen just once between you two, and he definitely came to our home. The sheets and bedding weren't changed for no reason. The delivery you ordered on the morning of November 15 at 6 am definitely included condoms, and the red condom at home didn't appear for no reason. That delivery order is the only one you deleted.

The park visit last May was definitely not just a simple walk. Your first step was to turn off the location, then your phone was off, and the next day you denied it all, insisting you were at home. If you weren't hiding something, you wouldn't lie like that. You must have been in contact frequently throughout last year.

If you want to take responsibility and genuinely repair our relationship, I hope you can do two things for me: arrange the meeting and tell me the whole truth. I don't want to enter the next stage of our lives - having a child - with these doubts and pains. Avoiding the issue won't solve the problem."