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Why would she do anything for you after you beat her?

This is Tony’s thread…

Sisoon wrote

So you've boxed yourself into a corner, and you tell yourself stories that will keep you there. And yet you joined SI and posted. That implies you want to get out of the box, out of the corner

Tony, do you in fact want to get out of the corner? Or do you just want to not be alone in corner, you want to be with people (us) who have BTDT and understand, at least initially?

Regarding the betrayal, I really want to let it go and not waste any more time and energy on such a horrible thing. But it's completely beyond my ability to cope. It tortures me in some way every day. I don't want to carry this hatred and grievance with me for years and be with you, as it wouldn't be fair to either of us or our future children. It would rob us of tons of happiness. So I want to ask you to face this issue with me and find a way to resolve it. For me, the only solution now is for me to meet him and for you to tell me the whole truth.

This is Tony's thread, but I'm writing to all who hold onto the above ideas.

I really want to let it go and not waste any more time and energy on such a horrible thing.

To heal, you'll have to expend LOTS of energy on the betrayal. You need to process your feelings about being betrayed out of your body. You'll probably have to process feelings from other betrayals as well, and you'll have to work through most of the hindrances to your feelings that come up. You can move on only by doing a goodly amount of this difficult, painful work - but the alternative is to stay stuck, repeating the past in one way or another.

I don't want to carry this hatred and grievance with me for years and be with you....

Whether you carry this hatred or not is entirely up to you.

...the only solution now is for me to meet him and for you to tell me the whole truth.

Not at all true. Totally false. The ap is not part of your healing process or the healing process of any BS. R requires honesty and truth from both partners, but no one can count on a willing ap for honesty. (An unwilling ap - one who ends the A immediately after learning the ap is in a committed relationship with someone else - may be honest, but that's a small minority of aps.)

But you need the truth only if you R. If you don't R, the truth is as irrelevant as the ap.

What do you want? Is D really on the table for you, or are you in fact demanding R? If your WS won't come clean, your best bet - and perhaps your only bet for a good life - is to D. You can give a last chance to a dishonest WS with something like 'Come clean now or prepare for a life without me.' But if that doesn't get the truth, D is almost definitely in your best interest emotionally, and you need to accept that, and the fact that your WS has the right to not come clean.

I apologize for the thread jack, I was trying to illustrate a point about what happens when you hold on to spite, but that went way beyond. I won’t continue on with that conversation here anymore.

Tony,

It’s been damn near a decade and OM still has power over you that you are giving away. You think you have to confront, then just go do it already and get it over with. I think it’s a terrible idea and won’t turn out any way you think it will. For every action there is a reaction, and you don’t know what he will do. Maybe he will cry and beg forgiveness, maybe he will laugh in your face and call you names, maybe he still has pics and videos of your WW and he shows them to you. All of these things have happened btw to people who confronted AP.

I know I could confront AP if I wanted to. I choose not to because it’s not worth it. I don’t need to prove anything to anyone. Neither do you. It doesn’t make you less of anything. I’m much happier now and I have peace. To me that’s the best revenge. I am proving I am the better man and AP isn’t even worth my time.

He isn’t worth yours either.

Has your wife admitted to anything I said in my last post? Has she admitted she lied and manipulated you? Has she admitted how awful it was for her to marry you and to build a family with you while deceiving you? This is where your anger needs to focus. Your WW needs to be accountable and realize she was a horrible person to do that to you.

maybe he still has pics and videos of your WW and he shows them to you.

Hit the nail on the head. This is EXACTLY why I've never called him or emailed him. He could easily destroy me by sending me a simple screenshot of her messages or, God forbid, photos or videos. If they exist. That terrifies me. I didn't want to call him in the beginning either because I knew he'd say, "She wanted it. She chased me. She was all over me and wanted to blow me, etc. etc." I just couldn't bring myself to hear that.

I want to fly back to the country, take a cab to his workplace and wait till he finishes his shift. Probably confront him on the sidewalk or back at his place. He wouldn't have a chance to show me anything because I'd put him to sleep before he even recognized my face.

I agree with you that none of this is helpful to me. It's harming me to think and obsess this way. And even if I were successful in caving his face in, I'd probably be calling my wife and kids from an overseas jail. So not worth it in any sense at this point.

I'm just venting. Saying how I'm feeling. Need to voice my rage to somebody, even if it's a group of anonymous forum users.

She and I spoke last night. I told her I've basically been stalking this guy online for 10 years. She was shocked by it - shocked that I'm still so consumed with rage and hatred. Brought up divorce to her for the first time. Told her I'm going to check in to a PTSD therapist this week. I told her she needs to be aware of triggers. Things she says or does that send me into a spiral like I have been this past week (sometimes stupid petty things are all it takes to crash me again).

What was her reaction to you mentioning divorce?

Even more important, what is your internal state in talking about divorce? Are you actually considering it? And if so, how does that make you feel?

One thing you really don’t want to do is bluff about divorce. If you have no willingness to ever follow thru, it will only worsen your situation to threaten it.

And regarding AP, going after him will do nothing. Truly, the party you need to deal with is much much closer, I suspect she shared a bed with you every night.

What was her reaction to you mentioning divorce?

Even more important, what is your internal state in talking about divorce? Are you actually considering it? And if so, how does that make you feel?

One thing you really don’t want to do is bluff about divorce. If you have no willingness to ever follow thru, it will only worsen your situation to threaten it.

I didn't bring it up as a threat.

I told her I've thought a lot about it others have suggested it. I reminded her of a marriage counselor in the beginning who told me in front of her, "You don't need to continue with this. In fact, it may make you bitter in the long term and destroy your marriage."

I told her that divorce is off the table for me currently because I would exchange my trauma, for traumatizing 4 children and her as well. I'd ruin lives all around me just because I can't let go of my hate and unforgiveness.

The only justification for divorce going forward is more betrayal.

The only justification for divorce going forward is more betrayal.

I respect that position.

Can I make a suggestion here, though? Betrayal isn’t just an affair. You are suffering. You’ve been suffering for a decade. You have largely two options in solving your misery: divorce or a thorough processing of the affair with a highly remorseful and forthcoming wife. That is what the collective experience and wisdom of this community points to. You are exhibit A in proving this right, as 10 years of rugsweeping has healed no wounds. If your wife loves you and cares for you, she should be willing to walk that hard path of processing the affair. If she is not willing, I would propose that that in itself is a betrayal, it would be her choosing to keep you in perpetual misery instead of her having temporary discomfort.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 1:05 AM, Monday, July 1st]

Can I make a suggestion here, though? Betrayal isn’t just an affair. You are suffering. You’ve been suffering for a decade. You have largely two options in solving your misery: divorce or a thorough processing of the affair with a highly remorseful and forthcoming wife. That is what the collective experience and wisdom of this community points to. You are exhibit A in proving this right, as 10 years of rugsweeping has healed no wounds. If your wife loves you and cares for you, she should be willing to walk that hard path of processing the affair. If she is not willing, I would propose that that in itself is a betrayal, it would be her choosing to keep you in perpetual misery instead of her having temporary discomfort.

Well, this is what I'm now trying to get my head around.

How much of this is a "we need to work through this together" issue, and how much of it is simply my own personal trauma and resentfulness, and a need for personal work?

We've had numerous attempts at couple counseling over the years. The problem is, and what took me a long time to wake up to, is that the focus is always on the relationship as a whole or the WS.

I've never ever had therapy that focuses on me individually.

Even looking at the people over the years who knew our story (counselors, pastors, her parents), I don't think a single one of them took time to ask me how I'm doing and what I'm experiencing. I was never helped. Probably why I hate everybody now. It was always a focus on "us" and relationship strengthening. But those things are useless when one of us is traumatized and feeling utterly alone. Nobody's focused on me. I got sick of hearing marriage counselors discuss strategies for improving our romance and love life, and having date nights, etc. etc.

All I wanted was the counselor to say, "Hey, are you ok?"

In fact, since she was the WS, everyone wanted to help her. Help her get over her issues. The entire first year of discovery was focused on rebuilding my wife and getting her back on track. Meanwhile, I was dying internally and nobody cared.

Man, I’m so sorry you had that experience. It’s so awful. I had a similar experience and I’ve really lost a ton of faith in the whole therapy profession. I currently have a good IC that I like, but to be honest with you I’ve gotten 10x more out of processing things here than in any therapy.

It was always a focus on "us" and relationship strengthening. But those things are useless when one of us is traumatized and feeling utterly alone. Nobody's focused on me. I got sick of hearing marriage counselors discuss strategies for improving our romance and love life, and having date nights, etc. etc.

I 1,000% relate to this. Same thing happened to me. Underlying this approach is a fundamental misunderstanding of why infidelity happens and the enormity of its effects. First, the relationship didn’t cheat, she did. You weren’t even married yet. She should have been head over heels day dreaming about you and your future together. And still she chose unfaithfulness. This had absolutely nothing to do with you, or your washing dishes or planning dates or bringing flowers. She blew this loser because she wanted to, full stop. Why anyone would think coaching you on how to pursue her better is a solution to this is out of their fucking minds.

Second, the only people who seem to know the enormity of the impact of infidelity are those who have been cheated on. So friend, I will ask you, how are you? I am so so sorry that you have carried this pain for so long. I felt it. I feel blessed to have found a way to process it and move on. I’m so sorry you haven’t found that path yet, but we would love to be your helpers and guides if you’ll let us.

You definitely need IC about your PTSD. And if you are going to remain in relationship with the woman who betrayed you, you need the freedom to ask your questions. You need an internal conviction that you have enough truth to live with. You need to know that your wife has owned up to how atrocious this was, that she has dug into her own soul to find the rot that allowed this and healed it so you can feel safe that this will never happen again.

This is not simply a matter of you exercising self control and "getting over it". You’ve already tried that, it hasn’t worked. You have to process this, talk about it, feel that an adequate mix of justice and grace are present to restore relationship. And again, if she won’t humble herself and bring true remorse to the table to help you heal, I call that betrayal. Would you want your children to stay in that when they are grown and married?

All I wanted was the counselor to say, "Hey, are you ok?"

In fact, since she was the WS, everyone wanted to help her. Help her get over her issues. The entire first year of discovery was focused on rebuilding my wife and getting her back on track. Meanwhile, I was dying internally and nobody cared.

I care. A whole bunch of people here care. We want you to heal and we would love nothing more than to share our experiences and learning with you to help you on your journey.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 1:47 AM, Monday, July 1st]

You need to come at this from a different perspective. All of us are born with a set of genetics that belong to only us. No one has the same makeup. Start there. For some reason your makeup holds on to hurts and insults. You cannot let them go. You might have a sibling who wakes up to a brand new world every day and can’t hold a grudge to save his life. You are uniquely you. So what do YOU need? You need for this to have never happened but that is a done deal. So how do you move through life without letting it eat you up. It has already robbed you of 10 years you can’t get back. My suggestion is a divorce. There is a reason for that. Your children are reading your body language all day every day. Wonder if being away from your wife would take that very heavy anvil off your shoulders. You might stand straighter, smile more, laugh often. You might find joy in the small things of life. Instead you are sitting a soiled basement chewing your own arm off. Stop it. Stop being the victim. Be the Dude because he abides. You need to let everything go but your love and care for your children. They need a healthy father. They need a Dude.

How much of this is a "we need to work through this together" issue, and how much of it is simply my own personal trauma and resentfulness, and a need for personal work?

I think the vast majority is a need for your personal work. You never received the help you needed and deserved back then, and certain pathways and lines of thought have cemented in. As painful as all of these thoughts are, they are comfortable too. Part of your identity by now. Tony the Victim.

Your wife does have a critical supportive role to play in it. If she is supportive, it will be a big positive. If she is negative, stuck in reluctance to revisit the past (understandably), that could be crippling.

She will probably think this is all about her again initially. In engaging with her you need to make it clear that this is now all about you, and she is just there to help, not to be the subject of an inquisition. If she is open and honest about the painful past, and she sees that it has a positive effect on you, then she will be more so.

Find an IC. If you are hard over on only talking to a male, then the Internet offers a solution. You can do remote therapy over zoom. Not as good as in person, because you lose out on the body language, but far better than nothing.

The keys to commit to healing yourself. Your current situation is unsustainable. You need to break loose from the cement that has you locked in, and that is going to take real effort, but I guarantee it will pay off.

Divorce is an option. Absolutely.

Your duty of care towards your kids as a man is admirable but you owe yourself an even bigger duty of care as well.

You mire yourself living with toxicity then wonder why you're feeling radioactive and sick.

If you want to tell yourself your kids would be ruined by living in a house with two people who quite clearly are not getting on no matter how much they fake it, then fine. They go to school with the feeling that mum and dad have issues between them. This is the example you both set.

Then you wonder why the children when they have grown up have lingering radioactivity as well..

My other biggest regret is that I never had the chance to confront this guy. I never spoke to him afterward.

I am sorry you are here and that 9 years have not been enough to find peace.

However I need to ask you: what do you think you would get out of a confrontation with the guy? A person in his situation doesn’t owe you anything. He did not "steal" your wife (at the time fiancé). They made a mutually convenient choice of which they are 50% each (to make a shared 100%) but each one of them, your wife included, is entirely, 100% guilty of their choice.

He may not even have known she was engaged, she is the one who should have stopped that. Whatever HE would say, would go to his advantage anyway and surely the hatred you have for him, to the point you would want to harm him, is directed to the wrong person. He wasn’t the one who made promises to you.

You have wasted 9 years of your life in regret and anger, a time nobody would ever give you back. Was it worth it? What did you do to heal? Did you ever go to a therapist? It just seems to me you don’t wang to heal, you closed yourself in your pain and don want to get out of it. Why did you stay with her? It seems pointless to stay and be so bitter.

I have moments in which I wish all the worst to my husband’s ex AP, especially for coming to our home for a dinner we had organised and for continuing to message my husband after she had clearly been discarded. She was a selfish FB POS but what did my husband do at the time to stop her? Who of the two had committed to respecting me?

My other biggest regret is that I never had the chance to confront this guy. I never spoke to him afterward.

I am sorry you are here and that 9 years have not been enough to find peace.

However I need to ask you: what do you think you would get out of a confrontation with the guy? A person in his situation doesn’t owe you anything. He did not "steal" your wife (at the time fiancé). They made a mutually convenient choice of which they are 50% each (to make a shared 100%) but each one of them, your wife included, is entirely, 100% guilty of their choice.

He may not even have known she was engaged, she is the one who should have stopped that. Whatever HE would say, would go to his advantage anyway and surely the hatred you have for him, to the point you would want to harm him, is directed to the wrong person. He wasn’t the one who made promises to you.

You have wasted 9 years of your life in regret and anger, a time nobody would ever give you back. Was it worth it? What did you do to heal? Did you ever go to a therapist? It just seems to me you don’t wang to heal, you closed yourself in your pain and don want to get out of it. Why did you stay with her? It seems pointless to stay and be so bitter.

I have moments in which I wish all the worst to my husband’s ex AP, especially for coming to our home for a dinner we had organised and for continuing to message my husband after she had clearly been discarded. She was a selfish FB POS but what did my husband do at the time to stop her? Who of the two had committed to respecting me?

I agree you need to focus on yourself, a therapy to fix you with the awareness that the outcome could be that you need to walk away from your wife. The feeling I have is that you would not be any better even away from her because your scar is so deep. Find a good therapist for yourself.

I read a few more pages and honestly I struggle to understand YOUR shame.

When my husband had his affair, his colleagues who used to come to our home for dinners in our garden knew very likely about the affair because the FB POS had NOTHING TO DO with my husband professionally but was constantly in his office and the two of them went out for lunch often with another colleague (to co fuse everyone) therefore they all probably knew.

I frankly think that if anyone had to feel ASHAMED is my husband. He was the one failing our marriage and he was the one who was showing his infidelity. He was the one who broke the vows, not me! He was the one who was embarrassing himself in front of his colleagues as they all knew he was capable of lying and deceiving so also as their line manager, he was looking not very honest… So why would that SHAME be on me?

I think you are seeing things from the wrong perspective.

[This message edited by Fantastic at 4:30 PM, Monday, July 1st]

Well, this is what I'm now trying to get my head around.

How much of this is a "we need to work through this together" issue, and how much of it is simply my own personal trauma and resentfulness, and a need for personal work?

Well, ten years on, even if it was mostly rugsweeping, I would at least hope she had demonstrated some level of becoming a safe partner. In her efforts, has she given you full transparency? Access to all electronic accounts just to reassure you there is nothing she is hiding?

Step one is her becoming safe again. Until that happens, you actually can't really heal at all because you are living in infidelity.

"Not Just Friends" but Shirley Glass, and "How Can I Forgive You" by Janice Spring are instructive books on this topic.

We've had numerous attempts at couple counseling over the years. The problem is, and what took me a long time to wake up to, is that the focus is always on the relationship as a whole or the WS.

Marriage counseling prior to her becoming a safe partner does exactly this, more or less. It retraumatizes the BS and treats the infidelity as a shared problem to solve. It is not. Few counselors get this, unfortunately.

I've never ever had therapy that focuses on me individually.

Why not? Also, I do recommend you try it.

Even looking at the people over the years who knew our story (counselors, pastors, her parents), I don't think a single one of them took time to ask me how I'm doing and what I'm experiencing. I was never helped. Probably why I hate everybody now. It was always a focus on "us" and relationship strengthening. But those things are useless when one of us is traumatized and feeling utterly alone. Nobody's focused on me. I got sick of hearing marriage counselors discuss strategies for improving our romance and love life, and having date nights, etc. etc.

All I wanted was the counselor to say, "Hey, are you ok?"

How are you doing now? You don't really sound OK. It sounds like you are worn to the bone over ten years of Sisyphean effort.

How many of your friends know? How many have been able to offer you real life support? Do you feel the need to hide your wife's secret for her? That almost makes you a participant in her affair, since it qualifies deception as potentially useful.

What I read in your thread is you feel her decisions as a WW reflect on you as a man. That is the position of many in society, but it not your fault. I don't know how good/bad of a husband you were, but whatever it was, an affair wouldn't fix it. What's worse, plenty of infidelity happens in normally functioning, otherwise happy relationships. Cheaters are broken individuals, and it's not your fault, or the relationship's fault for what your wife willingly chose to do.

In fact, since she was the WS, everyone wanted to help her. Help her get over her issues. The entire first year of discovery was focused on rebuilding my wife and getting her back on track. Meanwhile, I was dying internally and nobody cared.

I agree with InkHulk that I think a number of people care. We care, but are ultimately internet strangers tied by a similar traumatic experience. You will do much better with real life support from friends and an individual counselor. They'll be able to actually pat you on the back and say, "I know you're hurting, but it's gonna be ok".

Sending strength.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 4:38 PM, Monday, July 1st]

My suggestion is a divorce. There is a reason for that. Your children are reading your body language all day every day. Wonder if being away from your wife would take that very heavy anvil off your shoulders. You might stand straighter, smile more, laugh often. You might find joy in the small things of life. Instead you are sitting a soiled basement chewing your own arm off. Stop it. Stop being the victim. Be the Dude because he abides. You need to let everything go but your love and care for your children. They need a healthy father. They need a Dude.

I agree with the above. I am a grudge holder and not a great candidate for R. I realized this post A. My XWS was not remorseful but I don't think it would have mattered if he was I just couldn't get over it. I was in limbo for many years for some of the same reasons, for my kids, so they could have an intact family. The thing is what kind of family was it where I felt nothing but spite and disrespect for my xWS. It was not loving and I was not a healthy mom. I finally decided I needed to save myself. It was the best decision I have ever made once I got over and through my fears of D.

I no longer feel the way I felt on a daily basis with xWS. I am at peace and very happy. My kids see me thriving and happy. They are now adjusted and happy. It took some years after leaving to get here, but it was absolutely worth the price of breaking up the family. I knew I didn't want the life I had with xWS anymore and I was certain I didn't want to suffer the way I was for the rest of my life.

Can I ask, what is she saying now that you’ve talked to her.

Is she supportive? Dismissive? Something else.

Knowing what her state of mind is can sometimes help us advise.