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My BFF and her H have taken three sisters from their son's friends group under their wing, and now consider them adopted daughters. The girls' family is a mess, and their mother is emotionally checked out because she's in the middle of divorcing their abusive father.

The two older girls (25,26) now live out of state, and BFF and her H visit them a couple of times a year, spend holidays together, and vacation with them. There's no issue with them. The problem is with their younger sister, 16. Let's call her Julie. The older sisters push the "father/daughter" relationship between Julie and H.

BFF doesn't like Julie and never has. Julie's dramatic and manipulative and BFF's gut just doesn't like her.

H relishes being the beloved dad to Julie, and has agreed to allow Julie to be dropped off at their house every morning so that he can take her to school. (Julie could ride the bus, but doesn't want to.) Julie also wants to come over often and hang out. BFF set a boundary: Julie cannot come over unless BFF is home, which is a Catch .22, because BFF doesn't like Julie. Julie now has a license and a car, but is "scared" to drive, and doesn't want to give up her time with her "Daddy-O". She has one friend her own age.

When Julie comes through the front door in the morning before school, she used to call out, "Honey, I'm home!" to which H would reply, "Good morning, honey!" BFF told H to knock it off; he wasn't happy about it and said that BFF was overreacting, but he quit; and Julie questioned why he stopped responding the way she wants him to. Now H calls her Princess or Queen and fixes her coffee for her every morning.

She's overly familiar. She asked him to help her scrub period blood of out her swimsuit. Things like that.

The physical boundaries are fuzzy:

While watching a movie on the couch, Julie threw her legs over H. BFF and H fought over that.
Julie has some sort of schtick where she holds her hand up to H's face and he's supposed to kiss it. He does.
They were in our pool over the weekend and H grabbed Julie's foot, examined it, and asked why she didn't have on toenail polish like her sister.
People have asked BFF, "What's the deal with them?" so there's a vibe to it. BFF is not imagining it.

BFF and H fought all weekend about this - about how he needs to create and enforce some boundaries. He agreed at one point and said that there were times that he was uncomfortable and didn't know what to do. And then BFF came out of the bedroom last night to find them sitting on the couch with Julie's arm around H's shoulders. (Her sisters were there, too.) BFF stood and stared at H for a while, and he finally got up and moved. They had JUST fought about it and he couldn't muster up the courage to tell this child, to whom he professes to be a father figure, that it wasn't appropriate. Or, at the very least, move immediately. He just sat there like a frightened schmuck, unsure of what to do. Which absolutely proves that he can't be trusted to do the right thing. I don't think he'd let it advance to overtly sexual stuff, but it's a slippery slope without clearly defined lines, so who knows?

A few minutes after he moved, Julie came over, draped herself around his shoulders for a hug, scratched his back, and patted him. I think she's figuring out the powers of her feminine wiles, and I think she's subconsciously competing with BFF, who I'm sure she senses doesn't like her.

BFF wants to have a talk with Julie's sisters and explain that she thinks that Julie and H are too familiar, she's uncomfortable, and they need to set some boundaries. My worry is that BFF could be planting a seed. The sisters will stick by their little sister and, if you know at all how sisters operate, could amp each other up into accusing H of all sorts of things. And then what if their mother overhears, starts feeling guilty about dumping her kid off with H, and accuses him of something?

H has no friends and never has. He was fine hanging out at our house this weekend and talking with my H until another man showed up and he got uncomfortable, so they left. It's almost like arrested development. He likes to argue on semantics and has noooo emotional IQ.

It's a sticky situation. I think it's damn near an EA between H and Julie, which is gross because he's 60+ and she's 16. And I don't know how they get out of it and salvage the relationship with the two older girls, which is what BFF is hoping for. I don't know if that's possible.

Any advice or input, SI hive mind?

IMO, this is an all or nothing situation. Either H shuts this down hard or Julie is out. If the sisters have any sense of gratitude or self-preservation, they'll be upset with Julie for destroying the family dynamic that substitutes for what their own parents should have given them. But if they're ride or die with Julie, it's die. There's no way, absolutely zero, I would tolerate that kind of behavior towards my husband.

Unfortunately, the real problem here isn't Julie. She's a teenage idiot flexing sexual power, like many before her, and she'd get nowhere if the husband shut it down of his own accord instead of getting his jollies from sneaking around behind his wife's back and casting her in the Mommy role.

Where does the son fit into this mess? You'd think he would be pretty grossed out to see Julie hitting on his dad.

I think Julie and H are very comfortable with the physical affection.

I think your BFF needs to set up some cameras,secretly.

No grown man would be ok with that kind of attention from a 16 year old child. He is. His issue is his wife isn't ok with it.

It seems you are a good friend for focusing in on this. Your BFF is rightly concerned.

It looks like both your BFF and her H are operating under the delusional belief that this situation can be sorted without it becoming extremely awkward with some risk to their relationship with the two older girls. It cannot. The sorting out the mess will be awkward, uncomfortable and some feelings will be hurt. That is the best case scenario. So first they have to accept that reality. But they should do it quickly because left unresolved a lot of far worse outcomes are possible. Helping teenagers navigate uncomfortable situations is a parent’s job so if they consider themselves parental figures by proxy here then they should be willing to tolerate the discomfort. With that said, J is not their daughter officially or unofficially. Obviously, this is why you and your BFF are concerned. The H’s low emotional IQ and people pleasing are also very very concerning.

Option #1: A vengeful scorned immature teen could make some horrible accusations. She is right there should be absolutely zero tolerance for teen and the H to be left alone in a room together. At least for the time being until there is some equilibrium (which could take years or forever). That one step alone should greatly reduce the risk. Second step might be that BFF falls on the sword to say some women (meaning BFF) prefer their husbands to only have physical contact with them. Say that it is just an attention thing and not meant to be offensive to the teen at all (though of course it will be). Thereafter it becomes an open joke/not joke. Any attempt at physical contact by the teen is met with the « ha ha no physical contact » comment and hubby moves across the room, no exceptions. Eventually the teen gets bored and stops hanging out at their house.

Option #2 would be hiring a family counselor and having some of these conversation in front of her. That has the added benefit of bringing in an outside person who can vouch for the husband’s sincere desire to set physical boundaries with this teen. It would be protective if any future accusations are made out of spite.

Option #3 is approach the bio mom, who despite her faults is still the actual mother, and legally deserves to be part of this discussion.

Option #4 is what you suggested, about involving the older girls. I’m just not sure how that plays out and it takes all the control out of your BFF and her H’s hands. Seems a little risky because even though they are MORE mature, they may not be sufficiently mature to navigate this mess.

Anyway, these are just thoughts. Most importantly I feel so badly for your friend. I can’t imagine being in this situation.

As a mother of two young women this is major ick and inappropriate for even blood father/daughter at that age. By 16 girls set boundaries. This is gross. My husband would choose the girl or me. That’s a crime or an alleged crime waiting to happen. A grown ass man should not be that familiar with a 16 year old girl under any circumstances.

Thank you, friends. I sent the link for this thread to my BFF so she can read your responses. I think it will help immensely.

Also..people pleasing,and low emotional IQ..are both very common in men who cheat.

I hope she takes my suggestion,and sets up some cameras. She needs to know what she's really dealing with. She needs to see how he interacts with her,before she decides to talk to the older girls,or anyone else, for that matter.

Julie's behavior is gross..but she is a minor, and has had a difficult life. Young girls like that typically push boundaries.

But it's HIS behavior that is raising all kinds of red flags.

Also..many wives think "not my husband. He wouldn't do that. " I'd guess most of the BW here would have said that,before dday. People have a way of shocking us.

Double post

[This message edited by HellFire at 7:15 PM, Tuesday, July 9th]

I want to start off as saying I am a CSA survivor, so I might be projecting, but the way you’re describing the father’s actions towards a child is very much my experience when I was abused.

As a father of daughters and uncle to many nieces/cousins, let me just say, at no point should there ever be any behavior between a grown man and child that feels uncomfortable to observe. She is a child, he should be the one enforcing the boundaries and I have some serious issues with him "subcoming" to her behavior. He wants to be a father figure, that’s great, modeling appropriate relationships between adults and children is part of that.

I won’t lie, just reading about what you described made me really uncomfortable and I am really disgusted with his behavior towards her. I just don’t see any justification for it. This isn’t even about cheating, this is about a man who is being a predator to a child. Yes the girl is acting wildly inappropriate but she is only a kid and has clearly had a lot of chaos in her life. The adults, especially one who is claiming to be a father figure are supposed to behave like adults, and most of all be safe.

He isn’t safe. This shouldn’t even be a conversation. No wife should have to tell her husband to quit acting creepy with a teenage girl.

HINHF is right. The post should be re-read a few times, it's a good message.

No wife should have to tell her husband to quit acting creepy with a teenage girl.

And to have to do it more than once????

[This message edited by SadieMae at 7:34 PM, Tuesday, July 9th]

My daughter is 16 and doesn’t behave that way with her dad, nor does her dad behaves that way towards her.

I may be mistaken but there seems to be a natural distance taking place between a father and their daughter once they reach puberty and it comes from both directions. I’m talking about physical distance, not emotional.

With that in mind my opinion is that this isn’t a "father/daughter" relationship, it’s inappropriate even if nothing of that effect took place. She is a child (even if she may be developing into a woman) but the H’s behaviour is unsettling.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 7:40 PM, Tuesday, July 9th]

What is your BFF willing to tolerate? And what is her plan, consequence, next step if her H breaks that boundary?

She needs to get clear on her own boundaries for this marriage.

There is nothing more to know here--other than accepting that people WILL be upset and angry about her boundaries. But so what? Boundaries are not supposed to be fluid, adjusted because other people don't agree with them.

She needs to decide what her limits are for her home and her marriage. When her H disagrees and/or pushes past her limits, then what is her plan? Because he will. Nobody takes advantage of us without our permission.

An example for me:
"I cannot be in a marriage where my husband allows any other female over the age of 13 and not in our immediate family to touch him. If you are going to allow this EVER, then you can behave that way someplace else. But I will not stay in a home or marriage where this is happening. I cannot live with that level of disrespect."

Period.

IMO, this is an all or nothing situation. Either H shuts this down hard or Julie is out.

I agree. BFF is 100% certain that H will say "Okay, fine, I'll message Julie right now and tell her that she can never come over again."

My opinion is that they need to be "unavailable" to Julie when she wants to come over and hang out, tell her that "circumstances have changed" and H can no longer take her to school, and H needs to be HYPERAWARE when Julie is around and not allow himself to be in a situation where she could attempt inappropriate physical contact.

No grown man would be ok with that kind of attention from a 16 year old child. He is. His issue is his wife isn't ok with it.

Bingo. And he says that his wife is the one with the problem for seeing it as inappropriate. Like she's reading something into it that isn't there. DARVO.

A vengeful scorned immature teen could make some horrible accusations.

That's my fear. BFF wants to sit everyone down and talk about it, and I'm worried that it will backfire horribly. I don't think I'd mention the worries to the girls AT ALL. I'd just back away from Julie and protect myself.

That’s a crime or an alleged crime waiting to happen. A grown ass man should not be that familiar with a 16 year old girl under any circumstances.

Amen. She's going to pose it to him like this: If he came to our house and saw my H behaving the way he does with one of our daughters' friends, what would he think? He thinks because he's in a father role that it's alright, but he's NOT this girl's father.

Also..people pleasing,and low emotional IQ..are both very common in men who cheat

He had a PA when they hadn't been married long. When asked why: "She paid attention to me." Which is exactly why he's allowing THIS.

I hope she takes my suggestion,and sets up some cameras.

That's what I said, but as a protective measure. He was talking about helping her learn to drive, and I said, "Put cameras in the car, and don't be ANYWHERE alone with her." If they were to set up cameras in their home, it could protect them from false allegations. Better yet, don't allow her in the home anymore unless it's with her sisters.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 8:21 PM, Tuesday, July 9th]

He isn’t safe. This shouldn’t even be a conversation. No wife should have to tell her husband to quit acting creepy with a teenage girl.

True. The "talking" is creating a parent/child situation. No, you walk the walk and start separating your life at this point, right? Consequences.

Exactly what consequences has this man suffered other than his wife's anger (which is a consequence that only she is suffering)?

he says that his wife is the one with the problem for seeing it as inappropriate.

To add to what HNHF said..as another CSA victim, my spidey sense was tingling while reading your first post. Add in your comment above, and something is very wrong here. He knows what he's doing. He's gaslighting his wife into thinking she's the one with the problem, and his behavior with Julie is appropriate.

He's displaying predatory behavior.

If Julie feels this comfortable acting like this,in front of his wife, what's happening when she's not there?

Cameras. And a var in his car.

[This message edited by HellFire at 7:58 PM, Tuesday, July 9th]

This almost exact same thing happened in a church we used to attend. The 15-16 year old had absent parents so this family took her in. She was very helpful around the house and baby sat their kids. Over time she became very possessive of the H and would post on SM that she found the Dad she never had. It came to a point it was very uncomfortable and she was confronted and told to back off. She reported that they were in a relationship and would be married when she turns 18. Long story short he is now serving two 7 year terms in a TX maximum security prison. This is a bad sign, get them away from each other.

Your friend is right to be worried. The number of red flags here makes my skin crawl.

Unfortunately, the real problem here isn't Julie. She's a teenage idiot flexing sexual power, like many before her, and she'd get nowhere if the husband shut it down of his own accord instead of getting his jollies from sneaking around behind his wife's back and casting her in the Mommy role.

Agree with this 100%. On reading this, I'm deeply concerned about the husband's boundaries, not so much Julie's. He's supposed to be acting like a father-figure to this girl, and he shouldn't need to be told what he's doing is sketchy regardless of whether he's married. "Oh but she's the instigator..." Nah, she's a literal child who comes from an abusive family and likely has some trauma (i'd be willing to bet a history of CSA) and clearly has no basis for knowing how a healthy male figure should behave.

He just sat there like a frightened schmuck, unsure of what to do. Which absolutely proves that he can't be trusted to do the right thing. I don't think he'd let it advance to overtly sexual stuff, but it's a slippery slope without clearly defined lines, so who knows?

He can't be trusted and I don't believe for one minute that if the only thing that is stopping him from going this far is (another) fight with his wife, he wouldn't also be happy to blur further boundaries. If he actually wanted to help her (like a father), he wouldn't be acting like this. It wouldn't be okay if this was a grown adult woman - the fact that she is a minor should make it LESS okay, not more blurry. Her brain is not fully formed and she literally doesn't know better. The idea that society would frame her - or girls like her - as some sort of "Lolita" who is expertly wielding her feminine wiles in order to seduce a fully grown married man and is therefore complicit and blameworthy in what is actually predatory behaviour being committed against her (by someone claiming to look out for her!!) boils my blood. She deserves better.

Your friend is right to be concerned and furious. I don't think talking to the sisters is a good idea. I think she needs to shut it ALL down entirely. She has a duty to protect this girl from her husband - even if that damages the relationship with the older sisters. He's also very much exposing the family to legal problems, lawyer's fees, job loss, blackmail, and horrific humiliation when he eventually crosses too many lines and police get involved or a civil suit ensues. Even if he doesn't (physically) cross those lines, who is to say she's not going to make allegations eventually anyway if and when things don't go her way and she needs cash. If others have already noticed the weird vibe, it's not crazy. Talking to the sisters only gives them more ammunition.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 8:06 PM, Tuesday, July 9th]

He wants to be a father figure, that’s great, modeling appropriate relationships between adults and children is part of that.

YES. That's what I said! A true father figure would be teaching her appropriate physical boundaries. I fear it's too late for that, since he's allowed the breach for so long.

HINHF is right. The post should be re-read a few times, it's a good message.

100% agree.

And to have to do it more than once????

RIGHT?!

I may be mistaken but there seems to be a natural distance taking place between a father and their daughter once they reach puberty and it comes from both directions. I’m talking about physical distance, not emotional.

My H was physically affectionate with our girls (hugs, arms slung around their shoulders), and they with him, but they were HIS daughters.

Also, I myself was in a similar relationship with a man whom I considered my "surrogate dad", and I NEVER would have behaved this way with him. We had a quick greeting hug, and that was IT.

She needs to get clear on her own boundaries for this marriage.

You're absolutely right. My H thinks she should divorce him before the shit hits the fan and his assets get blown to hell. I think that's a little dramatic, but maybe not.

Exactly what consequences has this man suffered other than his wife's anger (which is a consequence that only she is suffering)?

None. YET.

Do they have a bio daughter? How does he behave with her? Or is it just a son?

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:12 PM, Tuesday, July 9th]

Your friend is right to be concerned and furious. I don't think talking to the sisters is a good idea. I think she needs to shut it ALL down entirely. She has a duty to protect this girl from her husband - even if that damages the relationship with the older sisters. He's also very much exposing the family to legal problems, lawyer's fees, job loss, blackmail, and horrific humiliation when he eventually crosses too many lines and police get involved or a civil suit ensues. Even if he doesn't (physically) cross those lines, who is to say she's not going to make allegations eventually anyway if and when things don't go her way and she needs cash. If others have already noticed the weird vibe, it's not crazy. Talking to the sisters only gives them more ammunition.

EXACTLY what I've been saying.

And you're right that it's pretty heinous to frame her as a Lolita. She's a CHILD.

Long story short he is now serving two 7 year terms in a TX maximum security prison.

YIKES.

Do they have a bio daughter? Or just a son?

Just a son.