SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi, things are going as well as expected for me and WH at this stage. This week we have spoken about his infidelity (a planned night away with a ‘random married person’ he deliberately met online in order to have ‘just sex’ - his words, absolutely not mine). It was odd, because we spoke with a bit less emotion and a bit more matter-of-factness about things.
My WH decided a while ago that he was interested in having sex with other people, having an ‘open marriage’ (unilateral and not agreed to by me) and this year carried through with his ‘desire’ to sleep with someone other than his apparently’vanilla’ wife (me). To be clear, he did not tell me how he felt until a few months before his infidelity ; at that point, he was behaving horribly to me and the family, as if we prevented him from fulfilment. His communication about his ‘wants’ were simply angry threats riddled with abusive phrases, rather than proper discussion.
In our discussion this week, he made it quite clear that he still would like to have sex with other people, he feels that this is his ‘identity’; however, he said that his infidelity taught him that if it is a choice between promiscuity as a single person or monogamy with me, he has chosen the latter. He has spent a long time reevaluating his values and approach and has made huge changes since DDay.

I suppose I am wondering if I should respect his honesty and be glad that he has thought carefully about what he is drawn to do and has made a decision to value me over that, or if I should be super worried that this is still some he feels he would want to do if I agreed to an open marriage.
To be clear, he has not remotely suggested an open marriage since DDay, and has repeatedly stated that he has utterly seen what he values most.

I suppose I just do not have the same urge to sleep with other people in a real world sense, even if I find them attractive, as I value monogamy beyond anything; I can’t imagine feeling as he does.

Should I respect his honesty or get scared? Or am I just being very small minded; perhaps most people actually feel like him? Is it realistic to expect him to stick to what he says now if he still has those sentiments?

In our discussion this week, he made it quite clear that he still would like to have sex with other people, he feels that this is his ‘identity’; however, he said that his infidelity taught him that if it is a choice between promiscuity as a single person or monogamy with me, he has chosen the latter. He has spent a long time reevaluating his values and approach and has made huge changes since DDay.

My H is of a similar mindset. His first two As were strictly sex, and the third one started out that way. I think if he had his life to live over again, he would not get married so that he could sample more from the sexual menu. However, he likes being married to me and will continue to respect the boundaries of monogamy to remain married to me. We're 20 years post-DDay, and as far as I know, he's honored that commitment. My gut thinks it's true, too.

Honestly, I would probably be alright with my H seeing a professional (where it's legal) to experiment with the things he'd like to try. It's his one life and I don't want to be the one who keeps him from living it fully. But not with a layperson. (Pun intended.) That has the potential of severe messiness, and I'm not about that.

You're very early in recovery, though, and these are probably the types of things that need to wait until later to be considered, if at all. That's up to you. You figure out what your boundaries are, and then he can decide whether he'd like to continue to live within them. It sounds like he's already willing, which is promising.

To be clear, he did not tell me how he felt until a few months before his infidelity ; at that point, he was behaving horribly to me and the family, as if we prevented him from fulfilment. His communication about his ‘wants’ were simply angry threats riddled with abusive phrases, rather than proper discussion.

That behavior indicates that it's highly likely that he was already cheating in some fashion. Do you have a timeline from him?

Yes, he was on a sugar daddy website at the time he was behaving horribly . He hadn’t found the person to meet but had started investigating options.
I really appreciate your response,given the similarities. My WH had little experience before marriage, and this was part of his reevaluation of his sexual fulfilment before infidelity.
Thanks again.

If your dday was slide to your join date I thinkI would not punish him for the honesty.

It’s not the ideal answer but given three months out that is pretty early. Usually early out you need a recommitment to fidelity and a willingness to work on himself.

But this answer needs to evolve over time.

Change is slow and it takes one level of self awareness to get to another level. It’s reiterative learning.

If he is going to stay in this marriage and be monogamous I would want him to dig a little deeper on his why (and while I think he does want to have more varied sexual experiences, there are other reasons such as character, selfishness, emotional maturity, etc)

But at this point honesty is very good. It’s going to take time to see if he can build on that.

Know it’s acceptable to leave any time your gut is screaming at you.

Hiking, thank you. We are 11 months out from DDay. I do think honesty is the better way. It is just, like so many parts of this process, scary at times.
Thank you.

When someone shows you who they are, believe them.....After his betrayal if my H told me his "identity" was tied to having multiple sex partners, I'd believe him. And set him free to realize his true identity - without me. Your H joined you in a monogamous marriage - he made vows to be faithful and the whole deal. Now, after years of marriage having multiple partners is his "identity"? Something doesn't fit.

He made it quite clear he wants to have sex with other people. While he didn't ask you to open the marriage, feel there could be a hidden motive here. When it comes to opening a marriage hopefully agreements to change up the marriage are NOT one sided, and not made under duress, or out of fear of losing the marriage, or especially initiated after infidelity. So, please don't feel "small minded" because you value monogamy. He unilaterally broke the marital compact without your consent. And IMHO most loyal, monogamously partnered people don't feel having multiple sex partners is an important aspect of their identity!

Gotta ask - Is it really "just sex" or "sexual experiences" he wants outside the marriage? Cheating/hooking up with like minded married women OR purchasing a "sugar baby" were apparently acceptable choices to him. Why not hire a hooker if it was really simply about gaining sexual experience and he was willing to buy it? Or is NPE (New Person Energy) or ego kibble/ego stroking from other women what he really desires? Assignation with married OW involved a certain amount of mutual online seduction to seal the deal correct? The overnight (!) tryst was held in a desirable getaway cottage location right? Why not meet for an hour or two in a convenient hotel if it's just about sex? His research into buying a "sugar baby" vs a hooker could also indicate a desire for more than simple sex to be exchanged.

If he is going to stay in this marriage and be monogamous I would want him to dig a little deeper on his why (and while I think he does want to have more varied sexual experiences, there are other reasons such as character, selfishness, emotional maturity, etc)

Agree with HikingOut. Sure, he feels like he missed out on broadening his sexual experiences because he married before those opportunities presented themselves. But, has he pursued IC to figure out WHY he thought it was okay to betray his wife; to LIE and abuse? What lack in his character made it okay to do the things he did? What about the inherent ethical choices and sexual ENTITLEMENT re: his willingness to participate in sex trade - yeah "sugar babies" are a variety of sex trade, so hopefully he's honestly calling it what it is. To address your question = is it honesty or a red flag = While none of us can predict the future, until he digs deep to understand his TRUE motivations (was the goal gaining sexual experience or seeking external validation from OW - for example) - and WHY he behaved the way he did (and why he treated his family the way he did!), relapse seems more likely.

Honesty in marriage is indeed the better way! Post infidelity (if R is seriously on the table) it is the ONLY way.

HikingOut is also correct that only time will tell if he's committed to, or capable of TRUE reconciliation. It's great he's evaluating himself and making changes. But hope he's willing to really dig deep, examine his sense of entitlement, expand his self-examination scope to steadfastly make meaningful change as time passes and the post A drama subsides.

Yes, reconciliation is scary! In my experience it only works if BOTH partners are 100% committed to recreating the marriage, and the betrayer is 100% committed to working hard at changing their selfish mindset because they want to be a better person..... for themselves. To remediate their character weaknesses so the devastation of infidelity never happens again. Hoping the best for you, Panopticon.

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 2:37 AM, Sunday, November 3rd]

Boundary builder,
Thank you. Your point about the ‘holiday cottage’ is indeed my one. He kissed her (why is this more important than the sex? I don’t know, but to me, it is!) ate a meal with her and spent the night next to her. To me, that is not just sex but connection beyond that. I believe many factors contributed to his particular choices at that point, not just his desire for another sexual partner, and I decided overnight that I shall ask him just what you have posted here.
It is sad, but I do believe that, whilst we do have so much going for us and so much potential in our marriage, even after infidelity, I would rather have a respectful break up than be coerced into agreeing to a life I know I do not want, or accepting behaviour which will break me.

This is just my opinion, but I also feel his use of porn and dating sites normalised infidelity; beneath the surface, everyone’s doing it… apparently.
Thanks again for your insightful words.

I'd believe him. And set him free to realize his true identity - without me.

IDK ... he's said he's choosing you over a promiscuous life. That looks like a commitment to your M. Only time will tell what he will ultimately do.

You can call 'time!' whenever you want to, however. If you don't want to take the risk, you can make a mindful choice to leave. If you don't believe him, you can make a mindful choice to leave. The moment he brings up open M again, you can make a mindful choice to leave. (I think you're making the right choice between living your values and accepting an M you don't want.)

IDK what your H will do. IDK what you should do. I do think you're getting grounded, and that makes good decisions for yourself all the more probable.

I urge above all that you make mindful choices based on what you want and what you think is possible. If you do that, you can hold your head high no matter what you choose to do.

Hippo, thanks for the pic. Sisoon, thanks for your sense!
I have spoken to him about things very openly today; he is clear that, whilst he would like to experience other people sexually, he better understands that marriage is a compromise, and that I ( and never hurting me as he did do) am (now) his priority. IAt this stage, this is all either of us can go on, but I certainly respect his honesty and sentiments.
It was really good to speak openly; I have no desire to make him feel ashamed (I don’t view his desires themselves as unusual or shameful; just deceit and infidelity as a terrible series of acts.) I actually felt that he made a brave step in being honest and vulnerable and I actually felt my respect for him increase hugely.
I know it is a total ‘watch this space’ situation, but just this honesty seems to have brought us closer.
Thanks, all.

Hippo, just realised my reply suggested your pic wasn’t ’sense’! Not intended!

I too think you should appreciate his honesty.

However... keep in mind that it does raise some serious questions.

When we select a partner there are all sorts of reasons. One of them generally being that we find we have some common values. The dating and pre-marriage period is where we are supposed to learn what our values are – not years later.

I see you are from the UK so to use a comparison that might be apt: Imagine you married your husband thinking he supported Man City, just like you and all your family, and he allowed you to believe that thought. Only for him to share after the marriage that he was an ardent Man U supporter and now shares he wants to wear a ManU shirt at the next family gathering.

In a sense that’s what happened here... You entered a marriage with certain expectations and now your husband has shared that he has some very fundamental and basic values that differ to yours. Yes – he is willing to compromise HIS values and adhere to expectations. But is that sustainable?

I would discuss the subject with him, because I have a feeling that when push comes to shove it’s more an excuse or explanation for his actions that what he really wants. I think an open discussion would be in order, and you could approach such subjects as:

If we were to have an open marriage, how do you envision it?

Is it one-sided, like YOU can have lovers but not me?

If he insists or implies you are "vanilla" – Would he be fine with you finding someone that has a larger package, gives better oral or is more romantic and would he be fine if you were to let HIM know that this is why YOU would want to experience another man?

His needs might be sex, but yours are romance and feeling desired. If the wish is to "open" the marriage to meet needs he feels aren’t met within the marriage, would it be fine if you had romantic (and not only sexual) relationships with other men?

I really want to stress that this is a discussion. You make it clear that it’s not something you want to do or even intend to do. It’s more a discussion to better understand what his needs are and why and how he has them. Make it clear that by opening this discussion you are only trying to get a better understanding of what his thoughts are.

I am pretty certain on a couple of things:

I am pretty certain he envisioned this as one-sided – i.e. he got some but not you.

I am pretty certain he envisioned this as "purely sexual" – i.e. his sexual needs not met in the marriage surpass whatever emotional/sexual need you might have.

I am pretty certain that he wont be happy being considered a "vanilla" lover. Not any more than you should be happy begin grouped into the vanilla-sex category.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:21 AM, Monday, November 4th]

Thank you, Bigger, especially for the football metaphor!
We had what seemed quite a good non-judgemental first talk about this a few days ago. He says that he just wants to experience other sexual partners. This was something he feels has changed in him over the last few years, I would imagine since getting deeper into porn. We also did have a vanilla sex life before this, but that was primarily because he was resistant or ashamed of doing much that was more interesting. I was always the more adventurous in terms of suggestions.
He says he would be very happy for me to have sexual experiences with other men (he actually wants that; I (perhaps wrongly) see this as linked to watching lots of porn and seeing us almost as actors in a scene), but views this as a purely physical experience. He would view it as betrayal if anything emotional occurred. My opinion here is that human relationships are never that cut and dried. I am also of the view that his actual experience of this would be different if fantasy tipped into reality. I have had to deal with what it actually feels like to have a partner step outside the marriage; he has not. He was horrified when I shared the fact that I almost had an emotional affair a few years ago but put the brakes on before things progressed.
Your point about the sustainability of his approach is the big one. I actually do not doubt that at this stage he genuinely wants to prioritise me, but we are still at the stage of seeing the ‘abyss’ and feeling the shock. I just don’t know (and I am sure he doesn’t either) if he will ultimately become frustrated or bitter about this. He did say, however, that just talking about it without judgment has made him feel much closer.
On a separate note, there just seem to be so many online magazine articles glamourising affairs at the moment (I am not a Telegraoh reader but there was an article about a woman who has made people’s marriages better y having affairs with married men). There was no consideration of the spouses’ feelings at all. I feel that as long as this stuff is perpetuated as healthy life style choices, it is hard to wave the flag for fidelity and the satisfactions of monogamy.
Went off on one there, but I feel that is the cultural ‘climate’ my marriage is set against when conversing with my husband.
Thanks again.

Bigger, I also wanted to say that I appreciate the parallel you made between physical and emotional/ romantic needs, which perhaps tend to get ignored or are harder to quantify. This is hugely helpful in approaching this topic.

A

When someone shows you who they are, believe them.....After his betrayal if my H told me his "identity" was tied to having multiple sex partners, I'd believe him. And set him free to realize his true identity - without me. Your H joined you in a monogamous marriage - he made vows to be faithful and the whole deal. Now, after years of marriage having multiple partners is his "identity"? Something doesn't fit.

He made it quite clear he wants to have sex with other people. While he didn't ask you to open the marriage, feel there could be a hidden motive here. When it comes to opening a marriage hopefully agreements to change up the marriage are NOT one sided, and not made under duress, or out of fear of losing the marriage, or especially initiated after infidelity. So, please don't feel "small minded" because you value monogamy. He unilaterally broke the marital compact without your consent. And IMHO most loyal, monogamously partnered people don't feel having multiple sex partners is an important aspect of their identity!

I am so very sorry this is happening as to open another trauma. It seems he is trying to manipulate you to accept the unacceptable and is dismissing your values. If monogamy and fidelity are your values I wouldn’t try to understand. You are incompatible because he changed and has needs that are not for a monogamous spouse.

and then spending about 6 weeks planning a hook up on a married-person’s hook-up site (because, hey, everyone is into ‘polyamory’ these days).

he made it quite clear that he still would like to have sex with other people, he feels that this is his ‘identity’;

Or am I just being very small minded; perhaps most people actually feel like him?

This is just my opinion, but I also feel his use of porn and dating sites normalised infidelity; beneath the surface, everyone’s doing it… apparently.

He says that he just wants to experience other sexual partners... was something he feels has changed in him over the last few years, I would imagine since getting deeper into porn.

I (perhaps wrongly) see this as linked to watching lots of porn and seeing us almost as actors in a scene),

Went off on one there, but I feel that is the cultural ‘climate’ my marriage is set against when conversing with my husband.

Went back and re-read your post history. You seem like an empathetic, progressive, kind and giving person - willing to put yourself in another person's shoes and consider their point of view. Hope this doesn't sound harsh, but perhaps he's weaponizing your inherent decency? Feel like you're contorting yourself to be "cool" with whatever the he throws at you. To not judge his "sexuality"........or his porn use (abuse?). Careful, Panopticon. Playing Cool Wife with an entitled partner is a sure way to build your own prison. This is a dynamic I know all too well, so bear with me while I dive in on this. Lots of reasons and history behind why BoundaryBuilder is my chosen SI moniker ;-). The goal here is to help get you out of infidelity, not to be cruel or judgmental. So, here goes.........hope this POV helps.

Feel that when a cheater tosses "polyamory" at a decent, open-minded BS it's often a red herring to distract from the issues at hand. Claiming polyamory is also a handy way to MINIMIZE the lying and betrayal "yeah, I lived a secret second life and lied to you about it - but, hey, it's only natural for someone like me. I did it 'cause you know... POLY. No big deal."

IMO, this isn’t a matter of his sexuality, it’s a matter of his sexual entitlement, his abusiveness. His temper (bullying?) is a BIG problem. HIs alcohol abuse seems to be an issue. He spends an inordinate amount of time with porn, correct? He lied to you, used vile words to describe you, did a deep dive on engaging in sugar baby sex trade, AND he unilaterally changed the terms of your mutually agreed upon monogamous marriage. He risked your health! Panopticon, it's okay to separate your good progressive values from your personal boundaries. You don't have to be a Cool Wife! It's okay to expect reciprocity and demand respect from our partners. It's okay to confront his porn use head on - to demand he address the role porn plays in his life, and the wedge it drove into your marriage. AND, IMO he isn't "polyamorous" - he wants to have sex with other women on the side AND keep you in place as his loving wife ---the responsible mother of his kids. He wants to eat cake. Eating cake = entitlement.

What his approach to porn use (abuse?) tells me is that - perhaps - you’ve been unknowingly engaged in an unspoken pick-me dance with pixelated porn - for a long time. If someone spends an inordinate amount of time with porn — could indicate that person PREFERS sex without intimacy. They prefer escapism over real life. Real life is messy. Real life women have demands and expectations, they may even have their OWN sexual needs.. So much easier to fire up the laptop. Yeah, there's porn out there where typical cis men and women wearing wedding rings lovingly and tenderly pleasure each other. Kinda doubt this is what he's looking at.

Panopticon, IMO it's important to view his porn use as a big concern EQUALLY alongside his infidelity. Don't let the porn slip by because the A is the latest manifestation of his entitlement. Or give him a pass on porn because "men look at porn" so who are you to judge, so it's COOL. Not so. Most men don't use porn as a habitual escape! And if porn is a problem with him OR the marriage, it's okay to call it a problem.

Maybe you're BOTH minimizing the inherent risks of habitually using porn? The way porn use insidiously dysregulates the normal functioning of the reward circuitry in the brain is frightening. If he's been abusing porn for years, it's likely his neural pathways are now hardwired to quest after the brain chemical cocktail released when he views porn. Just like drug or alcohol abusers have to use more and more substance as time passes to get the same high, habitual porn users need to up the ante over time to get that brain chemistry payoff. But with porn abuse, upping the ante means turning to more intense imagery, interacting online, going to strip joints, engaging in sex trade etc. It can get really gross and twisted as the abuse accelerates and the need for novelty and something more intense grows. Do you know what kind of stuff he's viewing? Is he spending $$ on porn? It's important to know EXACTLY what he's looking at and what $$ was spent so you understand what you're dealing with, IMO.

AND -

Not to excuse his choices..... If he's been viewing porn for a good while (years, right?) it's possible porn warped his idea of what reciprocal, intimate sex with real people is like. Porn gave him permission to objectify women, to call you the C word. Did he turn to the fantasy over the authentic? Yes, it's possible that, eventually, he felt real life should mirror his porn life — which could point to a problem with connection and intimacy. The history of "vanilla" sex in the marriage can't be blamed on you - you were game. The vanilla sex was due to HIS resistance...... his PREFERENCES. Panopticon, pixilated gals on porn sites don’t have needs or require intimacy, sounds like he didn't concern himself with OW needs............or YOUR needs and intimate desires.....????

Looking specifically at porn's influence on the infidelity = After a sex filled overnight fantasy, a somewhat "romantic", cottage escape - he expected OW to go POOF and disappear. His interest in Sugar Babies is also telling.....seems he wanted a younger woman to fulfill his sexual fantasies AND massage his ego = she'd tell him he's the greatest thing since sliced bread and engage in other faux romance. Then, they'd exchange payment and POOF she'd disappear. Hmmmm. Fantasy fueled Porn sex with immediate, easy ONE SIDED payoff + a real life fantasy fueled A with no "real" intimacy or connection + an ingrained selfish mindset = entitlement. He felt entitled to that A! He also feels entitled to treat women (sugar babies) as a commodity to bought and sold for his ego fortification and pleasure. IMO, he's got a LOT of work to do to become a better man, let alone a safe and reciprocating partner.

To close, please dig into the porn use. Insisting he take a deep, hard look at how porn plays into his sexual entitlement is OKAY. Asking him to examine the role porn plays in his life doesn't mean you're a judgmental prude! Time to hang up your Cool Wife persona and start demanding what you need and asking for what you want. Take it from a reformed Cool Wife. It's not cool to let him push your boundaries and weaponize your egalitarian nature. If he's serious about doing the HARD work necessary to change his selfish mindset, addressing how his porn use impacts your marriage - and how porn abuse degrades his life - IMO MUST be part of rehabilitation - must be addressed for an honest, open and true reconciliation.

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 5:43 PM, Saturday, November 9th]

Boundarybuilder, thank you for your really insightful comments which ring very true. I do feel that he has developed sexual entitlement due to porn use and that this is what has led him to want NSA sex: basically, living the skewed , emotionally undemanding experience he has viewed online. Everything you have said seems perceptive. Indeed, the same is the case for everyone’s comments here. I really appreciate them.

He would view it as betrayal if anything emotional occurred.

Basically he’s in the myth that there is no emotional aspect to sex...
Well... suggest he masturbates using his non-dominant hand, or wearing a glove if it’s only a physical release and variety he needs...
IMHO there is ALWAYS an emotional factor. That factor can be a sense of conquest, or power, or ability. It can be a sense of entitlement, acceptance or whatever. But there is always an emotional factor...

The porn connection is important IMHO.
I am one of the fortunate few that walked in on my partner having sex with someone else. Why fortunate? Well... I just saw two people having sex. Something that is definitely more enjoyable for those participating than those watching. Two people grunting and trying to get comfortable while laying in unusual positions. I realized that it wasn’t that I was vanilla or not endowed or lacked stamina – the only factor missing in me was that I was not someone else that could validate her ability to catch other men.

Then you have porn... That’s about as realistic as Superman’s disguise of a pair of non-prescription glasses...
To most "good" sex is a combination of the physical factor and the emotional connection. I saw no "connection" between my fiancé and OM. Just like the suggested non-emotional sex he envisions – he’s thinking of that scene where the housewife – wearing a skimpy see-through blouse – offers to "pay" the handyman, and all the action takes place in the kitchen in 38 different positions while she always keeps her makeup perfect while wearing stilettos and changing lingerie and the handyman maintains a humongous erection before blasting her face into a plasterers radio...

That’s what your husband envisions. Only reality is so much different...

Look – to me there is a major issue with values.
He is stating that for him the value is in the ability and freedom to have non-emotional sex with any person he chooses to.
You on the other hand have the value that you want to feel special within your marriage. As-is he’s labeled you as vanilla and lacking in sexual excitement. The missing factor for you isn’t the sexual aspect, but rather the emotional aspect of being told you aren’t special enough.

Once again not suggesting you DO this but maybe address this in a theoretical discussion:
Since his needs are purely sexual while yours are fundamentally emotional:
Would he be OK if you were to get your emotional needs for feeling valued, treasured, respected and revered by another man – even if that relationship was totally non-sexual?
Like you could reach an arrangement that every second Saturday evening he can head out to his sexcapades with the catch-of-the-week, while you head out to meet that old boyfriend who always expressed his love for you and is willing to dine and wine and take you to theaters and musicals and long walks... all the time knowing this will never go further.
Of course there is the risk that if someone showers you with attention you might fall for him – just like that lonely newly divorced housewife he’s hooking up with might want something more than a quick roll-in-the-sack. But surely your husband trusts you, if you are expected to trust his non-emotional sex adventures.

I actually think that if you were to agree to (and again – not suggesting you do!) him paying a sex-worker for a tryst once a month would be counter-climatic (pun intended) for him. Like if you sat down to do a budget: here is 500 for utilities, and 150 for your monthly blow-job... THAT would be a turn-off for him. Mainly because it ISN’T "only sex" and no emotions. The emotions he experienced in those six weeks of planning and all that... THAT is his kick, a lot more than the actual wham-bam-thank-you-mam.

Bigger, thanks. The irony is that he says (and I do believe him) that the sex he had was a literal flop, or he was! She did not look at all like her pictures and was not attractive beyond being someone different.
This has actually messed with my mind as I thought that having a real experience like that would have taught him that sex is often a disappointment. And people are real.
But no.
Thanks again. There seems no end to the alleyways betrayal takes you down.