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I have to agree with others on this thread. International women's day is about celebrating women, not tearing down men. I find this point of view offensive, and I'm a woman.

We can build women up without tearing down men.

In some homes should men do more?
Sure they should.

But now, unlike in the days of past, women can be strong, have careers, and if they have a partner that is not doing their share, they can leave.

Of course it's not that way all over the world, but that should be the focus, to build women up with strength, with resilience, so that they don't have to put up with treatment that is not fair or right.

At the same time, a relationship is never 50/50. Loving partners who support each other should split up tasks as best suites their home and meets their needs, without one having to take on more than the other.

Well, it didn't happen on International Women's Day, but I am SOOOO excited that the first women's FC game played at the first purpose-built stadium is happening today. This is such a HUGE accomplishment for women's professional sports. Boston is trying to get one built but has come up against some roadblocks. Patrick Mahomes and his wife are in the crowd cheering on.

#4
AND they WON!!!!
So Awesome and exciting. StL had their first season with an MLS team last year, and did amazingly well and the games are so fun! I would love to see us get a women's team here too. The men's team is owned by a Female majority of owners too.

International women's day is about celebrating women, not tearing down men. I find this point of view offensive, and I'm a woman.

You don’t need to comment on MY THREAD if you find my words offensive. I find offensive that there is no willingness to raise awareness on the issue.

Read on and do not comment if it offends you.

Read on and do not comment if it offends you.

When one posts on a public group, people respond. Expect it. Embrace it or not. You don't get to tell people not to post on things that may have struck a chord with them. That's like telling people to just accept racist comments or slurs. Don't comment if it's offensive?? That's the whole basis of instituting change!

Read on and do not comment if it offends you.

^^^That's not how this site works. Or any other public forum for that matter.

Annb

If that is how this site doesn't work what exactly do you expect from me? That I don't express how things are in most cases and that I don't raise awareness of the problem because you get offended?

It is like when people don't want to hear about domestic violence because it portraits a bad picture of (generally) men. If things DO happen, it is not by sweeping them under the rug that they get solved. It is by informing people so that people who live the experience don't feel uncomfortable for standing up against it, but feel it is their right to voice an injustice. Honestly that women are ok with not sharing equally looking after children and home chores is really offensive and so disheartening.

If you work, you need to share equally all duties whether you earn more or less than your spouse. I accepted the unacceptable and I believe there are far too many women who still do.

WAKE UP ON WOMEN'S DAY OR ANY OTHER DAY, BUT DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, DO NOT LET YOUR SPOUSE WALK ALL OVER YOU WITH SILLY EXCUSES.

If you have accepted to share a home and have children with that person, it becomes a duty to share equally whatever is related to the care of the children and the home. Anything less is unacceptable.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 4:33 PM, Thursday, March 21st]

But now, unlike in the days of past, women can be strong, have careers, and if they have a partner that is not doing their share, they can leave.

This is where I disagree. You leave when you have done all that is humanely possible to make the other person aware of the disparity and how it is affecting you. If you just leave and they have no idea what was affecting you, because you didn't have the guts to express your disappointment, how do they know? IF nobody talks about it because it "offends" people, even women, how can we see changes about it? Men will continue to come home and watch TV or finish work and go to the gym and women will continue to finish work and run home to be the cook, the mum, the cleaner, the taxi driver etc in total silence and the injustice will repeat itself. Until some women will snap and leave, after allowing all this to happen.

For those who think Women's Day is ONLY about celebrating women's successes, this is actually what I found

About International Women's Day

International Women's Day (IWD) is a global day celebrating the social, economic, cultural, and political achievements of women. The day also marks a call to action for accelerating gender parity. Significant activity is witnessed worldwide as groups come together to celebrate women's achievements or rally for women's equality.

Marked annually on March 8th, IWD is one of the most important days of the year to:

celebrate women's achievements

educate and awareness raise about women's equality

call for positive change advancing women

lobby for accelerated gender parity

RAISE AWARENESS, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, it is the right day to talk about gender equality and parity (not only at work but also within each family).

[This message edited by Molly65 at 4:32 PM, Thursday, March 21st]

Molly,

If you have accepted to share a home and have children with that person, it becomes a duty to share equally whatever is related to the care of the children and the home. Anything less is unacceptable.

It's none of your da*n business how my husband/I choose or any other member here chooses to run their household.

Annb

if it is not my "damn business", why does it OFFEND you if I find it unjust when chores and raising children are not equally shared between spouses? I find it very impolite the way you expressed that, very aggressive and unnecessary. You may have been here longer than me but the tone you set is definitely out of order.

What do you have to get offended by? Why do you feel compelled to reply, if you are HAPPY to do more than him, even if I find it silly, hey ho, it's your life and there is nothing to be offended by. You said it offends you, so I am trying to understand what really offends you. But you don't seem to have it clear even within yourself or at least you certainly haven't voiced it here.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 8:19 PM, Thursday, March 21st]

I'm going to lightly touch on this subject. I do believe women contribute more than they get credit for. I also believe that Men contribute more than they get credit for also. Its easy for all of us to take the things our spouses, regardless of gender, do for a family. I remember reading on this forum talking about grand gestures. Spouses felt like they were not loved because they don't receive the "grand gestures" that they feel they should be getting. My FWS was always messy. She could make an office look like a tornado took place, followed by a bomb and then the Tasmanian devil whipped through it. She always managed to know where stuff was and was always very good about making sure appointments were made and bills were paid and where things were in her space. She was very good at being a mother. She put herself through College and has a very good career.
She did not get there by herself though. She had the ability but she also had me. I could tear her down by saying all the things that I did for her. I could mention all the times my birthday was overlooked, how my needs or wants were pushed to the side to cater to her wants or needs. I could mention how I would have to help clean her up after the birth of our kids or the many times I had to clean up vomit or diarrhea up because it made her nauseous. I could go on about how I would have to "fix" everything in the house, do yardwork, do projects, maintain vehicles, help coach sports, go to Teacher meetings because it makes my FWS uncomfortable to hear bad things about our kids. how I would have to discipline our kids because she didn't want to be the bad guy.
I don't think the experience you might have is very accurate regarding men, or fathers in general.
The "grand gestures" mentioned earlier dealt with a BW who felt like her husband should be worshipping the ground she walked on. A poster mentioned that maybe she was not aware of what he was doing. Its easy to get caught up in the minutiae of life. Her husband cooked every meal. Its a simple thing, but gets lost in the ordinary. We have to eat, someone has to cook, its a fact of life, but it loses its meaning due to the normalness of it.
Everyone wants to feel appreciated. I can honestly say that I will stop doing things if its not appreciated. Why waste my time if my time isn't valued. I can easily take care of just myself and my kids. I don't have to invest in something with no return. As a spouse, you take the good and the bad. As a human being you do the same. As a Man/Woman, you also do the same.
We don't need to tear down one to build the other up. If someone is a shitty person who does not bring value, don't go near them. I don't need to tear someone else down to make myself feel better or mightier. This seems to be a popular debate regarding feminism nowadays. Feminism used to be about equal rights to men. Now its seems more militant that all men are evil SOBs that have ruined the world.
As a man, I dont have a problem with saying that some men, emphasis on some, are pretty low value, lazy and just poor in character. I think the same can be said about some women too.
Before you go on about how many pathetic men there are and how little they contribute to a household, perhaps look at how much value they contribute as well. Not all things are tangible or material.
I do hope you had a great Womens day.

Notarunnerup

Thank you for trying to contribute to my thread.

As I mentioned I lived in three countries, and I belong to a part of the society where both men and women went to university and are professionals. Unfortunately what I have seen does not change much from country to country. It is not a judgement, but a fact that women do a lot more within the family and there is a disparity in the way chores are shared. I have seen it in Europe (I lived in two countries there but saw that also in Spain, Greece, France and Germany) and I have seen it in the USA.

I also visited for months the Middle East and saw that there as well, educated or not educated people seem to accept that no matter if a woman works, house chores are MAINLY hers, every day, every week.

You can be in denial as much as you want, but this is the reality. You don't want to do anything about it? Fine.

Let others observe the dynamics within their own family and the ones of their neighbours and the patterns they see will always be the same.

Make a questionnaire if you prefer about who calls for child care when needed, who cleans the property, who irons, who washes the dishes, who changes the bed, who gets up in the middle of the night when children are crying, who takes them to school and after school activities and the answer, in MOST cases, is always the same: the FEMALE partner.

If you choose to be in denial, your choice. I choose to spread the word that things should be different, very few women nowadays are housewives and even then, if you are at home with little children, you can't be working (even if unpaid) 24/7, shared chores should be universal.

MEN should share responsibilities whether you like me to say it or not, there should be PARITY. At the end of the day it is my thread and this is the angle I want to give to it.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 8:16 PM, Thursday, March 21st]

Hi Molly.
I’m not saying that you don’t have a voice. You are totally entitled to your view. I have also been to other countries as a child of parents who were both in the military. Your argument is not a bad one but it does seem to be based on more emotion than logic. Passion is great in a debate but loses to facts.
I’m not saying that the experiences you have seen didn’t occur and I do agree that there needs to be parity but also understanding.
You mention the father not taking the day off when the child is sick, sometime the spouse (regardless of sex) whose job is less necessary must take off from work. It’s unfortunate but true. You can define the job that is more necessary in different ways. Maybe one spouse has health insurance tied to their job. Would you rather that spouse risk losing that benefit for the family to take time off? Or maybe they earn more. Or maybe they don’t get time off the same way. My FWS gets PTO that covers sick days but also vacations. They also get PTO more frequently than I do. My brother and his wife used to get into argument because he was not able to stay home with the kids. He was in the army and they just don’t care if you have sick kids. You have to go babysit soldiers.
It sounds like you are talking more broadly than is actually true. Broadly in the sense that I could all women like pink and love Barbie and all men like pro wrestling and explosions.
We can definitely say that people fit those categories but most people I have encountered do not fall into the descriptions of what you describe.
I’m sorry that your experience with men like this occurred but I don’t feel like this is as big of a deal as it might have been 30-40 years ago. Relationships have become much more balanced since women have joined the workforce the way they have over the last 50 years

Molly, I'm sorry your husband seem to not have been a good dad,and maybe you didn't have a good dad either.

Your experience isn't everyone's experience. Just because the people you have known didn't have involved fathers, or husbands,doesn't mean that speaks for everyone.

I don’t think you are reading properly what I wrote, @ Hellfire, I feel my words are being manipulated or misinterpreted.

I am not only sharing my direct experience in my family, it is not about my father or husband only, I repeat and make it clear the phenomenon is NOT LIMITED TO MY FAMILY. I observed families and spoke to many parents in different countries in Europe, Middle East and USA and saw the same patterns.

The reason why a husband often earns more than his wife is again about GENDER DISCRIMINATION. A man is favoured in his career, and so he ends up earning more, because he is rarely takes time off when his children are sick, does not take paternal leave when his children are little.

With regards to the health insurance I come from Europe and medical care is given to anyone regardless of their job so again, in Europe it is not even an excuse.

I cannot believe there are so many people in denial even of unequal career opportunities. Often the same identical job is paid more if performed by a man than it is performed by a woman and if you are unaware if these inequalities I am here to tell you they are real and do not apply to my personal experience but are KNOWN PIECES OF INFORMATION AND SADLY VERY REAL.

So a woman’s job becomes "less important" in the family due to these discriminations.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 10:18 PM, Thursday, March 21st]

Oh,no. We all understand what you're saying.

Gender discrimination is a thing. Absolutely.

And,often, a lot of the parental responsibility does fall on the mother.

But there are so many wonderful,active fathers in this world. Unless you have spoken to the majority of people in this world, your posts are sweeping generalizations.

I don’t think there is enough data to say that women make less money than men nowadays. If all things being equal (education, time worked, and length of employment) the pay should be equal. If the pay was not then the women who weren’t paid equal would have to fight the lawyers off that would love to file lawsuits against the companies on their behalf. You would also hear more about settlements in the news.
Now, that isn’t to say that it doesn’t occur but here in the United States there are labor laws that make it illegal.
Companies do not want the bad publicity of a lawsuit for labor discrimination based on gender. You can make blanket statements of women making less but the difference is not as large as people might suggest. Most of the data looks at extremes and not the norm.
We could use auto mechanics as an example. Men likely get paid more, but if we are talking at the same shop, then the woman doing the same job would be paid the same amount if all things are equal. You can’t use the argument that the top paid male mechanic in the world is a man and is paid x and the top paid female mechanic makes y and this shows bias. Chances are that each one works in a different place and the market decides their value.
The top paid musical artists are female, does that make it unfair for male artists? No, the market decides their value but in a company the law dictates the way they have to pay their employees and if they are paying a woman with equal everything less than their male counterpart they had better have some documentation to state why.

No, the market decides their value but in a company the law dictates the way they have to pay their employees and if they are paying a woman with equal everything less than their male counterpart they had better have some documentation to state why.

I wish I could say this is true, but this happened to my 30-something year old daughter a couple of years ago. A really stupid 20-something year old male ran off at the mouth to a co-worker as to what his salary was, and it was higher than my D. He had the same education, less experience, and less responsibilities. When the female peers found out, the shit hit the fan. None of them were willing to bring legal action because that is viewed as career suicide. Thankfully, my D finally spoke up to her boss after she felt like she had established a solid relationship with her and salaries were adjusted.

A couple of years ago, my D lobbied for increased maternity leave at her company because they were losing qualified candidates to other companies who were more competitive. She did her research, presented her case and got the maternity leave changed from six weeks to fourteen weeks. Last week, their new CEO (a male) returned the maternity leave back to six weeks. She is beside herself. It's such a slap in the face.

Regarding parity in domestic responsibilities, a couple of weeks ago, a friend posed a question on her FB page, asking her friends (which includes men), how much of the emotional labor of the holidays was handled by the wife. She also asked for what 'emotional' labor meant in their response. This would be in a hetero marriage with both parents working. Of well over a dozen responses, one suggested 50% (they had no kids); no one suggested below 50%; the rest averaged out to be 80-90%. I would say 90% in my own household. Now... the argument could be made that this is not a necessary responsibility, that women 'value' this activity more than men, but in the end, if you want your Christmas to turn out the way it does, it is going to fall to women. If I left it to my H, each person would get one present, there wouldn't be anything for stockings, no Christmas cards would go out, the tree would be mostly decorated, and the meal would have a main dish and two sides. This is all 'emotional' for me because it's what I value with regard to how our family experiences Christmas, and it's what my daughters have come to expect. But do I resent it sometimes? Yea.

I am making statements after years of research by my students. Information is available also for you to check.

Gender pay gap is a real thing also in the USA. Artists such as musicians earn according to their sales, therefore it cannot be taken as an example, also how many people earn their living on rock music? Come on!

"The gender gap in pay has remained relatively stable in the United States over the past 20 years or so. In 2022, women earned an average of 82% of what men earned, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of median hourly earnings of both full- and part-time workers. These results are similar to where the pay gap stood in 2002, when women earned 80% as much as men."

With regards to chores this is the RESEARCH, not my personal experience:

"Gender Equality Index 2021: Health

About 91 % of women with children spend at least an hour per day on housework, compared with 30 % of men with children. The latest available data shows that employed women spend about 2.3 hours daily on housework; for employed men, this figure is 1.6 hours."

So if it offends people to do research, I guess I am not the problem.

I have not responded to people rudely, differently from someone who is here since 2009 and used unacceptable terms “”It is not your damn business” when I was clearly not making reference to anybody’s life in specific.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 7:32 PM, Friday, March 22nd]

I find it interesting that you seem to bank so much on research, yet you have insulted the majority of the members here, for taking measures supported by research.

Think about that.