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This one is hard for me to wrap my head around. I know for a fact she wasn’t in love with him. Infatuated, definitely in the beginning, but the affair was so short that real feelings never could have developed. In fact, he was so demeaning that she didn’t even like him at the end and was hoping to ride out the clock to where she hoped she could end it, although I think he would have blackmailed her for it to continue.

I think she loved me right up until it started, and I also think she loved me right after I found out. It was like a psychotic break. She just wanted me and her life back and bent over backwards from DDay on to prove it. I’m pretty sure if you asked her today she would say she still loves me.

That leaves the few weeks out of what was a 25+ relationship where she still claims she never stopped loving me. I just don’t know. She definitely didn’t respect me or the marriage, but even during the affair she treated me pretty well. Can you turn love on and off like a spigot?

I never let her get away with the I never stopped loving you crap. More out of principle, than actually examining or thinking if it were true or not. I made a big deal out of not letting her say she loved me. I told her you can’t love someone and do what you did. I also remember telling her that if she said she loved me one more time I was walking out of the house and was never coming back. I definitely didn’t tell her I loved her.

Like I said, I never let her get away with the I never stopped loving you stuff, but in retrospect whether she did or didn’t, is a hard call. What wasn’t a hard call was if she loved me or not she destroyed our marriage. Probably would have been better if she stopped loving me. It wouldn’t have been such a waste. It was the same when she told me that he meant nothing. Great job. You destroyed us for something that meant nothing.

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 7:07 PM, Monday, November 4th]

numb&dumb

My response was a variation on that if your version of loving me includes you cheating on me then . . .I don't want it. Love is a verb to me. Your words and actions don't agree. I now assume your actions were true while your words were lies.

Hammer meet nailhead. This statement's crystal clear clarity as to both a rejection and repudiation of an obvious false love claim is something I wish I had thought of. Woulda, shoulda, coulda. I was frozen in place for a long time. My soul was on tilt. It did not compute, i.e., I love you so much/enough to betray & destroy you. Holy hell.

It changed over time. I rejected her often in many different ways . However she kept trying. When she kept trying with no encouragement from me it was hard not to believe her sincerity. I eventually allowed room to encourage amends and win me back. That took years of indecision, uncertainty, and so much painful talking.

In the end she did win me back. Why she did what she did is understood. She still comforts me when I trigger. We are a completely open book with one another. She gets this look now that is hard to describe. The closest someone ever described to me on SI. . . it was kind of like a child or a pet that knows they did wrong and deseperately wants approval/foregiveness.

Hats off to her on persevering in the face of sustained rejection. Consensus around here is that this is what it takes to truly R if the BS is open to it.

We have a mature and much less co dependent M today that makes us both happy. I will never look at my wife the same. She will never look at me the same either.

We now have love that is chosen freely, everyday, based on respect, autonomy and mutual benefit.

R does happen sometimes

Terribly high cost aside, Im happy for you. Truly.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 9:08 PM, Monday, November 4th]

OnTheOtherSideOfHell

Thanks for the further feedback and insight.

Yes, he did in fact tell his affair partner he loved her and I struggled with this, but I also realized he showed me love far more than he ever did her. 

This is a gut wrench for me. My xww never made a love claim for her AP, my best-friend-turned-enemy. Had she done so, I believe it would have been over, even in my completely f'd up state of mind. At the end of the day, however, she never could live up to her claims of love for me post Dday, at least not enough for me.

In all other areas of my marriage I was getting what I needed. I wasn’t going to throw it all out because he wasn’t faithful. I know many feel differently and I respect that. Like I said, we’re all unique in our needs and emotional make up.

I postulate that your perspective here is not....."usual"(?) My perspective is that my xww through it all out through her betrayal. In your case, the opposite held belief seems to have played a significant role in your R efforts.

I wish you well.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 9:43 PM, Monday, November 4th]

hikingout

I think better advice to a ws is be sensitive to the idea they may not want to hear it and not argue. My husband wanted me to say it and he didn’t want to say it back for some period.

His philosophy was I wasn’t loving him during the affair but he wanted me to express love to him both in actions and in words. Every bs is different.

I think this is better put. Thank you.

May I ask, knowing your story, when the roles were reversed, what did you want to hear from him in this regard?

Thanks again.

I agree with those who have said these words mean different things to everyone. I think the idea of love that resonates for me the most could be divided in two: romantic love and familial love. Romantic love in my mind sort of comes and goes, is more akin to infatuation. There have been times over our thirty years together that I have more and less romantically in love, and I believe my WS has been the same. Even when its « dead » there are still embers there that just need to be blown on to rekindle. During my WS’s cheating the embers were pretty dormant for both of us, I was never around because of work, nor was he, and when we were around we were exhausted by our three little kids. He chose to blame this on me, he felt rejected as I was truly never into sex, and I was mad at him for his immaturity as a parent and a partner, and a person. He needed to grow up and he acted out in a horrible way. His failure at romantic love did not bother me as much as his failure to demonstrate what I thought of as familial love. To me that is the love you have for your children and parents but I have always had that same love for my spouse.

Even when I wasn’t madly in love with him I still felt loyalty. He seemed to lack that loyalty which was disturbing. But, he most definitely was also disloyal to our children with his actions so that helped me to see it less personally. His upbringing I think created a bit of a lack of loyalty in him. a willingness to put himself first when he was hurting or insecure. Today, at least he sees that lack in the person that he was. He claims to have the familial kind of loyalty and love now, but of course it can’t be tested. Unless a woman were to throw themselves at him and I were to get to witness him rejecting it I am not sure I can ever be certain he truly has that quality of loyalty. I am hopeful it is there. He has been pretty tireless through 8 years of recovery to win me back so I do give him credit for that. Either way, I do think he loved me while cheating — crazy right? But in my view of love he had some sort of low level constant love. He for sure wasn’t willing to give me up when push came to shove. He was a cake eater and naively thought he could take what he thought of as a harmless advance (obviously far from harmless in the end) and continue on his merry way with his marriage. He was selfish and naive, without a grown up concept of love, but in his own limited way I don’t think he stopped loving me or our children.

Cooley2here

Thanks for pitching in.

This has nothing to do with an affair.

I agree that feelings of love can ebb and flow in the course of of a marriage, particularly through the extremely stressful circumstances youve described making the pair bond seem tenuous at best.

For the sake of this discussion, however, Im talking about kive claims when the pair bond has been unilaterally severed/obliterated.

waitedwaytoolong

What wasn’t a hard call was if she loved me or not she destroyed our marriage. Probably would have been better if she stopped loving me. It wouldn’t have been such a waste. It was the same when she told me that he meant nothing. Great job. You destroyed us for something that meant nothing.

This is the mind f in a nutshell. Regardless of the love claim, the love-claimer incinerates the marriage imo. Honestly, there is no reconciling the two without an alternate universe. It is a horrible no win situation for both ws and bs. The remorseful wayward desperately wants their affirmation of love to be believed, many betrayeds cannot (fully) make that leap in the face of the clear evidence to the contrary. I never really could and I dont think she ever really meant it (her claims of love).

It completely sucks.

Question, did you ever again tell her you loved her post Dday?

Thanks again wwtl. Hope you are well.

ETA:

Can you turn love on and off like a spigot?

This is the insanely maddening question.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 7:07 PM, Tuesday, November 5th]

Stillconfused2022

But in my view of love he had some sort of low level constant love. He for sure wasn’t willing to give me up when push came to shove. He was a cake eater and naively thought he could take what he thought of as a harmless advance (obviously far from harmless in the end) and continue on his merry way with his marriage. He was selfish and naive, without a grown up concept of love, but in his own limited way I don’t think he stopped loving me or our children.

Thanks for this. Ive rolled this theory around in my mind. Ive heard it called "shallowly rooted" love. I do believe that certain ws's have an extremely limited capacity to provide the level of love that the bs is expecting/requiring. Its a very scary proposition for the bs. How can the ws make the massive leap forward required for there to be a viable chance to rebuild? My fww absolutely could not and even were she able, dont know if I would ever have had enough buy in for us to move forward. Ive called those ten years of trying misery, and that is accurate.

Thanks for your thoughts on this. Best wishes.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 11:29 PM, Monday, November 4th]

For me it boils down to does infidelity negate all other aspects, commitments, goals, and loving acts of the marriage? . I think for many the answer is yes and I understand that. Maybe I am wired in an odd way, but for me the answer was no. I would never have gotten married if all I wanted from a marriage was fidelity. Don’t get me wrong, I do want and expect it, but there was just so much more to the Union than keeping his trousers on. 😂 That being said my husband’s cheating was never about wanting out of the marriage, choosing a new partner, wanting to leave for her, etc. I don’t know how I’d feel if that had been the case. Like I said before, the only one universal, undeniable truth with infidelity is it hurts like a bitch.

DT, I brought it up because I believe we throw the word "love" around until it is a pretty useless way to describe feelings. My overwhelming love for my husband slowly eroded over time by his cheating even though I knew only the very limited info I was given. I don’t mean I stopped loving him I stopped adoring him. He was often dismissive of me which I took way too personally. I finally figured out years later that our youth, his traveling job and my spinelessness made it easy for him to give himself permission to cheat and to treat me the way he did. Evidently this is what was under the surface while he was living away because I did not have to be a part of a couple and it felt wonderful. After I started working I found my backbone and everything in our lives changed for the better, including my spine.
We now work on acting loving. We give hugs. We try to please each other in small ways. That to me is love. Cheating is thrilling. It causes euphoria. That is not love. It is sex on a roller coaster and does not last. The sneaking around, sexting, hiding it all is what is confused with love. You are asking how you could be loved while someone was actively lying to you and cheating on you. The love was probably hidden and subsumed under the intense hormones racing through the bodies of two people who believed they were so special. Don’t use the word. It has no meaning in this context. Love is not destructive and cheating certainly is.

DT, we stayed together a long time after. I did tell her, but not in a very convincing manner. More in the realm of her saying how much she loved me, and my reply would be "me too". Even that was probably 2 years in. I can’t recall me ever looking at her and telling her how much I loved her unsolicited. I didn’t tell her I hated her, and I really didn’t, but the affection that was so special never returned.

I think at the time of my H’s affair he did believe he loved the OW.

He planned to D me. Even on dday2 he again wanted a D.

During his affair he blamed me for his unhappiness and everything he didn’t like about his life. He told me I never loved him.

But at some point on dday2 he decided he really wanted to reconcile and he ended the affair.

Recognition of his mid life crisis affair for what it was — an infatuation — was the easier part of reconciliation. I could see very clearly the mistake he was about to make. Luckily he realized it in time.

The most challenging and difficult part of R was accepting how he felt about me during that period (12 months) of time and how he justified his behavior. How he was so arrogant he flaunted the OW in my face. How cruel and nasty he became.

Do I love him? Yes. But it will never be the same way it was prior to the affair.

OnTheOtherSideOfHell

I think for many the answer is yes and I understand that.

I did/do. Primacy, loyalty, fidelity, that which is agreed to at the exchange of vows made publically are at the core of marital committment.

Like I said before, the only one universal, undeniable truth with infidelity is it hurts like a bitch.

On this we agree. Once experienced, you never forget. Witness me discusding this some decades after the fact. Ripple effect.....kind of like an asteroid strike to the soul. Leaves a pretty large crater too.

Thanks again for contributing.

Cooley2here

DT, I brought it up because I believe we throw the word "love" around until it is a pretty useless way to describe feelings. My overwhelming love for my husband slowly eroded over time by his cheating even though I knew only the very limited info I was given. I don’t mean I stopped loving him I stopped adoring him. He was often dismissive of me which I took way too personally. I finally figured out years later that our youth, his traveling job and my spinelessness made it easy for him to give himself permission to cheat and to treat me the way he did. Evidently this is what was under the surface while he was living away because I did not have to be a part of a couple and it felt wonderful. After I started working I found my backbone and everything in our lives changed for the better, including my spine.
We now work on acting loving. We give hugs. We try to please each other in small ways. That to me is love. Cheating is thrilling. It causes euphoria. That is not love. It is sex on a roller coaster and does not last. The sneaking around, sexting, hiding it all is what is confused with love. You are asking how you could be loved while someone was actively lying to you and cheating on you. The love was probably hidden and subsumed under the intense hormones racing through the bodies of two people who believed they were so special. Don’t use the word. It has no meaning in this context. Love is not destructive and cheating certainly is.

Thanks for elucidating. As an aside, you need to forewarn me before making "sex on a rollercoaster" comments as I was in the middle of a large sip of my morning brew and started choking at the table which alarmed my wife and both dogs So so good. I needed that. Thanks.

I related to the spineless comments as well. As a young Dad and Father, coming from an insane home/family life (if you can call it that), I had no frame of reference for how to respond and was wayyyyy too weak in doing so. I have said this in previous posts and it is a tremendous regret of mine.

This has now been thoroughly rectified in my life.

Glad to hear you are seeing and experiencing love-in-action in your M.

Thanks again.

wwtl

Thank you for that.

I did tell my wife ily from time to time, starting about a year out. When I did though, the passion and affinity I used to have for her was dying a slow, agonizing death. Probably didnt help that I didnt believe her ily's (though I didnt express that either). I think we went through the motions until every vestige of passion and affinity I had for her was completely gone. Drained to the last drop. It was a sad sad way to live I can tell you. But I hung in there, hoping against hope that it would change for the better (hopium), but, of course, it never did. I stayed there, in that loveless existance, in large part for my kids which I now consider a mistake.

When I contrast that to what I experience with my 2nd wife, the differences are stark. Reciprocal ily's are said early and often, almost every day and they are backed with constant and consistent loving action. This passionate-affinity filled-love in the context of a fidelity encircled marriage is amazing. Like going from sepia tones to color in uhd. Not sure how else to describe it.

Ive now come to a place in my life where I actually have time to reflect on all stages of my time on the earth to date. Life is a bit less frenetic with grown kids and grands. I am grateful for this life my wife and I have built together and she feels the same. We have come far l from the dark days of our betrayals (she too was brutally betrayed) and yet, certain memories from those times live on rather strongly in my memory. Lovelessness is one of those memories, but, it is not without worth as to lessons learned. The contrast has made me cherish even more what I now experience daily.

In the end, love does help make my world go round.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 4:07 PM, Tuesday, November 5th]

I believe there is a song about this something like "I love the way you love me".

My opinion is there is a difference between loving what you can get from a person (objectified love) and what I interpreted married "love" to be. Perhaps the first is Hollywood love. Where I "love" how you make me feel.

A second type of love is where we are committing, however imperfectly, to consider the wants and needs of another person and to form a "we" sort of relationship. Perhaps this is best described as unselfish or at least partnership love. This second type of love is what I was committing to when I got married.

Wexh was very quick to toss the love word around to me—and unfortunately other women when it suited him—when I was married to him. It took me decades to translate this to "I love what I get from you and this relationship and if you ask for fidelity or have the misfortune to get sick I am out of here and I will take what I can from you on the way out".

My bad for speaking a different "love language" than him and failing to recognize it until it was too late to save myself.

The1stWife

Thanks for this

The most challenging and difficult part of R was accepting how he felt about me during that period (12 months) of time and how he justified his behavior. How he was so arrogant he flaunted the OW in my face. How cruel and nasty he became.

Do I love him? Yes. But it will never be the same way it was prior to the affair.

Though my then-ww never threw her infidelity in my face nor justified it to me, I do believe she secretly reveled in her affair experience. It was mixed with some shame and semi-regret at times but not enough for a full change of heart. I had little confidence in her love claims to me. In fact, over time they grated on me more and more. My verbal affirmations of love were not received with much gratitude or appreciation either. Quite the grim picture eh?

May I ask you, when you were able to verbally express your love to him again, how does he now receive that? What is his perception/attitude toward your love for him today? Additionally, if you can quantify it, what were your minimum requirements/expectations for his expressions of love for you? I know these are hard to address. Feel free to refrain from answering.

Thanks again.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 4:44 PM, Tuesday, November 5th]

Wexh was very quick to toss the love word around to me—and unfortunately other women when it suited him—when I was married to him. It took me decades to translate this to "I love what I get from you and this relationship and if you ask for fidelity or have the misfortune to get sick I am out of here and I will take what I can from you on the way out".

This was very much my xWS too. I think he loved what I did for him and how I made him feel (until I didn't). I'm not sure what love even is with a narcissist. I think he loved me in the beginning and then it was what I could do for him and how to make him feel. Mostly he loved himself. He loved validation from anyone and would take it wherever he would get it.

Shehawk

My bad for speaking a different "love language" than him and failing to recognize it until it was too late to save myself.

Me too.

Do I love him? Yes. But it will never be the same way it was prior to the affair.

Since his confession I have found it painful when he says ILY. I will confirm with a nod or a hug, but I find myself unable to say it back to him. I wasn't sure he even noticed until yesterday. He woke up and asked me if he had ruined everything. If my love for him could ever be the same. We had a good talk. "No love, it can never be the same".

I ran across this poem online. Kind of summed it up.

That Day

Right in the middle of our life, on an ordinary day, the unthinkable happened. Everything went from ordinary to chaotic and there I stood, in the mess of it all, knowing there will now forever be a before and an after.

That Day

Sharyn Marsh
Leave Her Wild