SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I understand Bigger's comparison of "just browsing" the hardware store with no intention of buying anything and coming home with a table saw that costs a grand, but in truth, that is much more spur of the moment and whimsical. I don't agree with the comparison - you don't just "browse" with strange men.

Totally agree with faithfulman based on that conclusion on what I wrote (I often agree with faithful man – a valuable contributor).
I don’t think I got the message across so let me try again:

Remember – I’m trying to put some logical thought into what are in their base illogical thoughts…

If I stick to the table-saw comparison:
Before getting into my vehicle I had been thinking of what I could do with a table-saw and wondering how I had managed without it. Despite having managed perfectly fine for decades without one… I had somehow created a mental need that maybe didn’t have any foundation in reality. The sensible part of me realized the need wasn’t necessarily a good or realistic one, yet the need was there.
When I drove past the hardware store I probably had no reason to go there, but I did. Maybe even took the longer route from office to home – the route that took me past the hardware store.
When I entered the store I hadn’t decided beforehand to make that purchase. I might have been thinking that I needed it, deserved it or whatever. But I had never consciously decided to make that purchase. Yet I did.

The line of thought might be:
I’m not going to drive by the hardware store because I don’t really need anything and if I do, I’m likely to go in and buy that table-saw.
Well… since I’m just outside the hardware store I might as well go in but I need to be careful so I don’t buy that table-say.
Since I’m in here I might as well look at the table saws, but that doesn’t mean I’ll buy it.
Well… it is a good saw and it’s all shiny and nice… Might as well buy it…

Honestly – In real-life I can replace table-saw with expensive fly-fishing rod or only-one-beer-with-the-guys for a number of never-intended-but-probably-inevitable-because-I-fooled-myself-into-them situations!

I wouldn’t be surprised if PFB84 wife’s reasoning was something along:
This is exciting. Still haven’t done anything wrong per se. It went to the edge but I stopped it from going over that edge (keep in mind that for many WS "the edge" is a very loose term. For us the WS can be way past the edge but they still think they haven’t done anything wrong).
When the OM offers an opportunity to meet again the "sensible" W would say no. The W here said yes, but probably did not think "Wow. He’s coming over. Better shave down there and buy lingerie and lube". I venture that she had him over with no intention to have this go further BUT with the subdued knowledge that this would AT LEAST get to the same edge.
Only it doesn’t… It goes further…

Fortunately for PFB84 there is possibly a time where the WW realizes she’s definitely crossed that edge.

Possibly… maybe shes minimizing or lying. But maybe she’s telling the truth. That is PFB84’s big issue and if he feels assured that he has the truth then all the better for him. But he better be careful to feel assured because doubts will hinder any possible reconciliation. If I were to recommend a poly in this instance it would be to eliminate doubt.

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Speaking in general terms and not specifically this instance:
Many see the WS as some conniving person with a master-plan for infidelity. Yes – we do have those instances where the WS sets off with the intent of cheating, maybe even with the first available option. But I think the bread-and-butter type of infidelity is the "accidental" infidelity. I use the term accidental here tepidly because all infidelity can be avoided – unlike accidents. It’s more that I’m implying the WS doesn’t really go out to a bar with the intention of finding someone to cheat with, but does go to a bar, does accept a drink, does go into that conversation about issues that shouldn’t be addressed with other, does allow their hand to be on the OP thighs, does allow that brief touch, does allow that intentional touch, does allow that first kiss… It happens… It does so because it’s allowed to happen, but not necessarily planned or intentional.
No less an affair though…
And at each and every stage the WS is aware they are progressing on a slippery slope and have ample opportunities to get out of the situation.

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I totally agree with faithfulman that the wife can’t be allowed any leniency on this being a decision she made. Just like I didn’t accidentally take the table-saw to the cashier, accidentally charge my card and accidentally load my truck. There was intention from the moment I decided to make that purchase – just like there was intention from the moment their lips met and she undid his zipper.
Without that acknowledgement of intent and a decision there isn’t any way a repeat can be avoided.

Btw – that table-saw? Used once and now gathers dust in storage…

I agree with you Bigger; the start of a lot of affairs in not intentional. Of course you know this perfectly well but I would add that it is easy for the BS to feel like it was all intentional due to the continued lying, planning and subterfuge from the WS in an affair that lasts longer than one night. It may start with poor boundaries and circumstance but it becomes very intentional.

I have to say I wonder about this unintentional part of affairs. Yes I believe it to be true in many cases. It does just happen without any plans or intent early on.

In my case however, my husband met the other woman at a bar. They started talking (innocently enough) and he found out that she had some skills and experience that would help him in his current job.

So he hires her. Most of their contact was via remote, however as they started to become "friendly", they decided to meet up to discuss "work".

My suspicion is that he was interested from the beginning.

I am still around and reading this thread and others. I don't think people saying I'm being passive and letting it slide are correct. The whole point of my last post was that I've interrogated every part of this backwards and forwards and THAT specific part about her intentions the second meeting is the one part that stands out as just not being the truth, so I was looking for input on that which I appreciate. I have not rug swept anything, I have not forgiven or forgotten anything, I have not let her get away with anything INCLUDING that absurd explanation. I am beyond aware that "I just wanted to talk.... even though we had just texted about how we were attracted to each other and before I knew it his pants were accidentally off" is not what happened.

Someone earlier said "she was at LEAST hoping for it" and I think that is probably the closest to the truth. But even then - they had moth made it known they were at least interested. Even though her text technically said no she couldn't take it further, they both knew they wanted to so what else is inviting him over going to lead to? I was not saying that I accepted her ridiculous explanation, I was saying quite the opposite. And the reason it frustrates me so much is that in every other way, she's doing everything she's "supposed" to. It's genuine and not coming from a place of just shame and panic. So when she can admit to every other aspect of this thing, then still say "Well I didn't think it would happen again" I just lose it. It's so unbelievably stupid to say, coming from a rational person.

I'm not just moving on with my life and accepting that this is my marriage now. I have not committed to R yet and have made it known it's too early to even think about things that way. When I read things about steps to rebuilding trust and connection, I feel no recognition for things I want to do anytime soon. I do think the M is worth saving and will recover in time, but it's not there yet.

Separately, she has had a rough stretch the last week+ with her MS and even THAT has been a trigger for me. I don't feel the sympathy or need to take care of her like I used to, I just feel angry and more disgusted by the betrayal. I have my 2nd IC on Tuesday and I'm looking forward to talking some things out.

And the reason it frustrates me so much is that in every other way, she's doing everything she's "supposed" to. It's genuine and not coming from a place of just shame and panic. So when she can admit to every other aspect of this thing, then still say "Well I didn't think it would happen again" I just lose it. It's so unbelievably stupid to say, coming from a rational person.

There's no reason why her accounting of it can't be true though. No one can tell you exactly what's going on in your WW's mind. Despite declarations to the contrary, it's just not possible.

I remember back before I was married that if I was attracted to someone, I made a point to be where he was and if that meant making plans with him, so much the better. That did NOT mean I wanted his dick in my mouth.
It meant I wanted to look at him and I wanted him to notice me. Sometimes, it's much more of a Ken doll kind of attraction, like a regency romance where the scintillation is in forward glances and witty repartee, where one flirts with danger rather than immersing herself in it. It's not always about sex. Women keep saying that and men keep NOT hearing it because in the end, yeah, women like sex too and they have bunches of it. But it's NOT always about sex.

There's no reason why her accounting of it can't be true though. No one can tell you exactly what's going on in your WW's mind. Despite declarations to the contrary, it's just not possible.

I remember back before I was married that if I was attracted to someone, I made a point to be where he was and if that meant making plans with him, so much the better. That did NOT mean I wanted his dick in my mouth. rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes
It meant I wanted to look at him and I wanted him to notice me. Sometimes, it's much more of a Ken doll kind of attraction, like a regency romance where the scintillation is in forward glances and witty repartee, where one flirts with danger rather than immersing herself in it. It's not always about sex. Women keep saying that and men keep NOT hearing it because in the end, yeah, women like sex too and they have bunches of it. But it's NOT always about sex.

I see what you're saying and I guess that is part of the disconnect.

At the same time, the excitement of the first encounter, the ego boost she got from it, and the physical sensations are what she liked so much about it. There was no deep emotional connection or anything like that, their texts in between weren't some great conversation building into a relationship- so when she tells me she didn't intend to get physical the second time I just can't believe it. The physical part was the whole point - so "I wanted to have a conversation about it" just induces eye rolls from me. I DO believe that she wasn't planning to have sex, but I think there is a lot of space between conversation and sex and it likely leans more towards sex than conversation. To your point though I can't know what was in her head.

I continue to pray for you and your family.

My thinking is that in her self justifications she has told herself so many times that she did not intend for it to develop into sex that she is beginning to actually believe it. And the more times she tells herself that story the more that story is solidified in her mind. It is like what Bigger said. That if they actually have told themselves many times that 2x2=5, then their "truth" is that 2x2=5; and, depending on how that question was asked on a polygraph, that would be the result. (btw, I hate the phrase "my truth").

Anyway,I just want you to know that I am praying that you can get to a place of mental peace, and also praying for your wife's health.

Take care.

At the same time, the excitement of the first encounter, the ego boost she got from it, and the physical sensations are what she liked so much about it.

That can also be "romance". People get physical sensations before they make physical contact. Adrenaline is released and you get butterflies in your stomach from the mere proximity of an attraction. And yeah, people with good boundaries aren't going to put themselves in that situation. People with good boundaries understand just how fast that kind of situation can lead to sexual arousal. But... if our WS's were people with good boundaries, we wouldn't be here, would we?

When we look back on what we know about your WW's motivations, her need for external validation and her lowered self-esteem while dealing with this illness, it seems more rational that she was going for the ego boost than that she suddenly turned into this machiavellian nymphomaniac who was bent on fellatio. When we consider the expected payoff of agreeing to that meeting your WW's version fits better with what we know about the pathology.

I follow a blogger whose husband has been diagnosed as a sex addict so that’s not quite what you’re dealing with but it does help explain what your wife is trying to get you to understand. This husband said he got the excitement from the sneaking, the lying, the planning, all of it and it did culminate in sex but that’s not where he got his thrills. CT says it’s romance and usually it is. It does not surprise me if she got a really good high off seeing him without ever thinking about having sex with him. Most women, and I repeat most women, need some build up to get ready for sex. Occasionally there’s one that’s always ready but they are rare. I’m assuming with her it was the romance part of it that she looked forward to because it was like being a teenager again. It is amazing to me how adults don’t act like adults they act like teenagers when they get in the throes of these things. Absolutely makes no sense.

In the big picture, I think you'll recover if you decide to offer R.

On this one sticking point of her not accepting accountability for there being more to inviting him back to get the check when she knew she would be alone... how exactly has this been addressed? In IC? How have you presented it to her? If you tell us we might be able to strategize a different approach to address it.

So when she can admit to every other aspect of this thing, then still say "Well I didn't think it would happen again" I just lose it. It's so unbelievably stupid to say, coming from a rational person.

There you have it, it she had stopped at the first incident (makeout session) this would still be infidelity but at least her explanations would make more sense, yet she did not stop it and instead kept flirting and texting him for days, and then she decided to force an in person meeting "to have a conversation about it".

I completely understand why you're stuck on this nonsense because it most likely simply is nothing but nonsense and IMHO simply ridiculous, that she won't admit to it (at least not yet), that no "rational person" like you claim she is would simply come to the "I didn't think it would happen again" conclusion, the fact is a faithful married woman would never even put herself in such a situation, much less entertain any flirting with OM whatsoever, but heck this is an infidelity site and let's deal with that. You could argue that the first makeout session was "unplanned" even though that most likely didn't just happen out of nowhere and plenty of flirting and green light signals probably occurred before that, however the second encounter was not either "accidental" nor "unplanned", maybe she didn't know how far it would go, but a "rational person" would know that there was a possibility it would happen again and that it could go even further (like it did), IMHO the most "rational" explanation is that she wanted it to happen, that's why she wanted the "in person" meeting to "test herself" aka Bullshit, and not just a conversation over the phone "to talk about it". She definitely needs intense IC to help her cope and fully own the bad decisions she made to commit such a huge betrayal. Again you seem like a very smart guy and I don't blame you for a second, her explanation simply doesn't make sense and you refuse to take another bite at the proverbial "shit sandwich" often mentioned here and other forums, although not infallible, remember Occam's Razor: "the simplest explanation that will account for a circumstance or event is most likely the correct explanation".

PFB,

You said in your early posts that your wife divorced her first husband for cheating, insisted to you that she would not tolerate any cheating in your relationship, passed moral judgements on other people, and overthinks every situation. And yet, she cheated, essentially becoming the kind of person that she probably would have sworn was her total opposite.

How did that happen? I think that the key to the issue of what she was thinking when she invited her AP the second time is what her definition of 'cheating' is, coupled with the mental gymnastics she performed to make inviting the guy round again to not be cheating, just...What?...Curiosity? Some harmless making out that was not - in her estimation - cheating?

As ridiculous as her claims about inviting him round for a conversation or performing some kind of test of her willpower sound to us, we are not people trying to find rationalized, considered reasons for inviting an affair partner round which allow us to not think of ourselves as a cheat. And that element was bound to be very significant to a morally-superior, anti-infidelity advocate like your wife. To maintain her image of herself, she had to find other reasons for inviting the AP round again, because without them, she would have had to admit to herself that she was a cheat, just like her first husband.

So should we be surprised that she insists that sex was not among her motivations for the second encounter? While it is quite possible that what she wanted was the excitement, the feeling desired, the 'rush', etc, there must also have been some active mental blocking in the mix too, because the physical and the emotional had already become inextricably entwined in the first encounter. This is where what your wife counts as 'cheating' becomes important.

For us, every interaction with the AP counts as cheating of one sort or another. The interesting thing would be to know at what point your wife thinks that she began truly 'cheating', as opposed to 'fooling around', 'playing', 'flirting', etc. Given the way the second encounter finished, with your wife having some kind of breakdown/implosion during or after the oral sex, it appears that it was only at that stage that your wife's carefully constructed framing of her actions collapsed, and she saw that she was actively cheating, just like her first husband. The fact that she described that episode as a breakdown indicates how powerfully she was deluding herself about what she was doing until reality burst her fantasy bubble.

Many people who have affairs create bogus reasons and justifications for their actions, few of which stand up to close scrutiny. If your wife invented a scenario for the second meeting that is hard for us to believe, we have to bear in mind that she had far more motivation to believe it (to preserve her image of herself) than we have, when we listen to it and think "Oh, come on..."

If your wife's account of what she was thinking appears to be disingenuous nonsense, it does not mean that she did not entirely buy into that disingenuous nonsense at the time, because it suited her purposes to do that. She had nothing to gain by applying more stringent analysis to it before the encounter, much as we all - including her, now - wish that she had.

Hmm. I strongly disagree with those saying the beginnings of an affair aren't intentional. Crossing a boundary is intentional. Flirting is intentional.

At the risk of being scolded, maybe it's a gender thing. As a woman,I know when a man is flirting. I know when he's sending me signals. Maybe men don't always pick up on a woman flirting, and sending signals. I've been married twice. I've witnessed other women flirting with both of my husbands. Neither of them had a clue they were being flirted with. They just thought the woman was being friendly,and making conversation. I believe that. My current husband,because of the infidelity, has learned how to spot that type of behavior. But, before,no. As a woman, I know when a woman is flirting. It's obvious.

Clearly there was a lot of flirting, and signals being sent,before OPs wife wound up making out with OM. She knew what she was doing. Pretending otherwise is ridiculous.

Hellfire, I agree it was planned. I don’t think she was acting as an adulteress. I think it was butterflies in the stomach that she enjoyed. Long term relationships can’t sustain that degree of excitement so the slippery slope of her flirting(which I believe is the beginning of cheating) was going to happen unless SHE stopped it and she didn’t. He was on go.

This blog just brings out the PTSD in all of us who had a cheating SO. The stupid stories they make up. They think you are going to believe them. That as long that you have no pictures of them doing it alls is well.
The rug sweeping. That if we divorce them we lose half of everything we worked for. Trying to live a life paying CS Leaving you living in a small apartment.
Sorry You must do what you feel right to do. She cheated, you have all the time in the world to make your choices. Take your time

People don’t cheat unless they want to. She wanted to do what she did. It gave her what she wanted. But once they do it and like it. It’s easyer the second time

Two things. First, with regard to passivity, this is what I’m getting at: you’ve let your WW know full well that you’re not going anywhere. You said that you’re not in R right now, but does that really matter in her eyes? Bottom line is that your WW knows you’re staying in this M and not going anywhere. Thus, she knows given this fact, it’s inevitable that you will R. What motivation are you giving her to dig deeper into that second meeting? You’re sticking around for better or for worse don’t forget.

Second thing. If you haven’t done so already, I think that you must tell your WW that you don’t feel invested right now in helping with her MS, snd this feeling will most likely only intensify the longer she refuses to help you heal by refusing to accept snd dig deep into that second meeting. Not communicating your hurt, anger, and feelings completely right now will only hinder the process of R.

And finally, I’ll just say this one last time. If I had a nickel for every BH that refused to do a poly because they thought they had the entire truth from their WW…. Don’t fall into the trap that she came to you with an admission. She lied snd TT with the admission. The admission was for her benefit to alleviate guilt. What her admission should have been about, snd was not, was giving you your agency back, which she stole through her A, and the subsequent lies and TT, so you could make a decision about the future of your M.

Thus IMO, the only way to start to fix this is to give her a poly to determine some base line truth from a proven lier. Please don’t fool yourself here. The collective wisdom you’re reading here should be your guide, not your assumptions about whether she’s being truthful or not. You’re not in a very good position to be objective about this.

Just trying to help you not make the same mistake that many other BHs have made, who’s initial posts looked exactly like yours. They believed their WWs and refused to do a poly. Then, once they reluctantly relented, lo and behold their next postings were all about how they should have listed to everyone’s advice about doing a poly early on.

PFB84 I hope you are doing as well as can be expected today.

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 3:34 PM, Tuesday, October 18th]

To your point though I can't know what was in her head.

It doesn't really matter what was going through her head because there's a good chance she was not being totally honest to herself at the time. The thing to latch on to is not that whether or not she met again with the intention of getting physical, but that she met him alone again with the full knowledge that they both had shit for boundaries. It's like Bigger unintentionally ending up with a table saw he didn't need then going back and ending up with a radius saw that he didn't need the next week.

Your wife is only kidding herself. She invited him over and it was not to give him a check.

In the end it doesn't matter. He came over and got a stand up triple.

What do you think what would happen if there was alcohol involved.

I read these posts regarding the frustration the BS has with the cheater not admitting certain things. I understand that pain.

I spent 4 years watching my H have an EA he refused to admit to. I knew it was going on. He just thought he was smarter than me and could pull the wool Over my eyes.

It ended. Completely rugswept. Never apologized.

He did however admit it to OW#2. Who then told me he admitted it. But that was 15 years later.

That almost cost him our M.

My point is that sometimes, for our own sanity, we have to stop waiting for a lying cheating spouse to admit to things. Some things they will admit to and some things they won’t.

If it is that important to the BS there are two choices at the end. Either stop trying to get the BS to admit to things and move on and try to R.

Or realize the CS cannot or will not be able to satisfy the BS when it comes to certain things regarding the affair. And if it is important to the BS, then D.

If you have exhausted all avenues and the CS just cannot meet your needs when it comes to answering questions regarding the affair, then you only have one option.

Save yourself and your sanity. By any means necessary. You will get to a place of acceptance and happiness, whether you D or R.

I hope this helps you.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 9:14 AM, Thursday, October 20th]