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No I disagree. I don’t think she is a narc. I only think someone is one of those if they are diagnosed. They are actually rare and even more rare in women.

I think she is self absorbed in what she has endured and has held onto resentment, allowing her to keep them as justifications that entitled her to the affair in the first place. And I only say that now because to me this mechanic thing was the seed of another affair. And to me the only way someone becomes a serial cheater is lack of enough shame to make one change.

I mean what else could a sane person derive by that data?

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:00 AM, Thursday, June 20th]

Someone so ashamed of what that have done wouldn't just go out and repeat the pattern. I wasn’t many months out and I would have told you I would rather stick a fork in my eye than have another affair. And I was a really fucked up and confused ws, I had simply hit rock bottom, knew I had myself to blame. I think that is all kicked off by feeling shame as the overwhelming initial response.

I hear this, it makes good logical sense, and still something isn’t clicking with me. And I think it goes back to my dad and addictions. Maybe I’ve misunderstood or mislabeled something three dreams deep, but I believe almost by definition addicts have a shame/action cycle, while you are arguing that shame should necessarily interrupt the addictive behavior.

Here’s where I’m at with this stuff right now guys:
- I genuinely respect you all having a desire to resolve this story in your minds. It’s been long and in depth and you’ve invested a lot of time and emotion into it. Out of care for you I’m ok with talking about this
- I can see using my story as a learning opportunity for others coming along. As I’ve said, I care that others are getting value from all this.
- But figuring her out, at this point, this isn’t for me. I prefer to pull my thoughts away from it. She’s some impossible mix of anxious/avoidant shamed and selfish, kindly betrayer. Whatever the correct model is to predict all this chaos, I’d rather spend my one precious life worrying about other things.

I would be interested in feedback on my comments above about the shame/action cycle in addictions vs our current discussion. But I’d like to shift the conversation pretty soon.

If Mrs. InkHulk is interested in SI's opinion on her behavior and thought patterns, she can always post on the Wayward Side. :-P

Not that you need any validation from me, InkHulk, but let me just say again how great it is to your focus shift toward understanding your own feelings and motivations, instead of trying to figure out how to fix her.

I would be interested in feedback on my comments above about the shame/action cycle in addictions vs our current discussion.

In my mind, I think of it as more a shame/avoidance cycle.

I’m not picking at semantics here.

The action aspect is exasperating to try to unravel when someone cannot deal with their shame. Because from an outsider view, they just keep doing things - taking action - that only further causes them shame.

But when you understand that the avoidance is what drives the action then you better understand the actual obstacle.

Going into the shame is what actually creates the remorse. Outside of that, the best you get is just regret.

In my mind, I think of it as more a shame/avoidance cycle.

I’m not picking at semantics here.

Words are important when trying to figure this kind of stuff out, so pick away if you think it’s profitable for understanding.

Let me make my shame/action comment more clear.

Alcoholic gets drunk, does something awful.

Alcoholic feels ashamed of their actions.

Alcoholic wants to avoid the shame.

Alcoholic gets drunk.

This is what I mean. Seems like we have a Shame/avoidance/action cycle. Don’t you love it when we can all be right?

Now if that was drawn out as a flow chart, you might put a check point in there after the "feels shame" step that would ask "Is this Rock Bottom?", and if you say yes, then you would get out of the cycle and stop doing the awful and change your life. But otherwise the cycle is just going to spin and shame, real true felt shame, is actually the fuel, and not the brakes.

Someone so ashamed of what that have done wouldn't just go out and repeat the pattern.

Not necessarily true. Shame in and of itself does not lead to only one coping behavior, even after calling the shame out. It can lead people to do many different things, like any emotion. However, if we are only focused on the WS's actions (which we should be), then does it matter whether or not they are feeling shame? What she is doing is hurtful. Period. That is all someone needs to know. Understanding her should not change our boundaries about what we will tolerate.

Hurt people hurt people. True. But when we have good, strong, protective boundaries about what we will accept, we can feel empathy for these "hurt people who hurt people" and STILL leave them. Because to stay is to diminish our own value. To stay means we are accepting abuse. To stay means we are signing up to keep being hurt. To stay is martyrdom. Instead we must take care of ourselves. "I know you have been through a lot, and I'm sorry for that, WS. But this relationship is not good for me. I need to move on." It is our duty and right to take care of our own selves and move away from people who, even after we've explained and given chances, continually hurt us. It is our duty and our right, and the other person does not need to agree. They usually don't! But so what? We must protect our own selves by removing ourselves from hurtful relationships.

From where I’m at now, I wonder why redemption is just not meant for my life story. I wanted it with my father, never happened and he’s dead. I’ve wanted it with my wife, invested years and countless tears, and it’s not to be.

I very much relate to this, InkHulk. You need to understand this as the abandonment wound that it is. You are drawing a straight line back to your childhood saying, "People have always hurt me, and I just want them to be sorry. To value me." You must, must, must (in my personal experience) heal this desire for validation from your father in childhood if you want to break the cycle of "over-forgiveness and weak boundaries" in your adult life. I spent many years in IC to heal these childhood feelings (mom is a narc who treated me as the scapegoat. She's still alive, but she has no plans to apologize or redeem herself in my eyes). When I learned to reach back in time and heal that little girl's voice that said, "I'm so unworthy. Nobody values me. Nobody fights for me" and give that little girl the love she needed so badly, I was then able to let bad relationships go in adulthood without trying to win people over or fix their poor treatment of me. I could simply let them go without believing their shitty behavior was because I was not enough. I became more important to me than my relationships.

They say that we try to recreate and fix our childhood hurts through adult relationships, and it seems you have noticed this in your own life. The work that you need to do is to heal the first injury--your dad. This will mean seeing him as a man who was incapable of doing better. It had nothing to do with you. And you will need to give that little boy you once were all the hugs and props and compliments and empathy that you were denied back then. It feels SO good to do this! I cried and cried and cried reflecting on my childhood, but they were good tears, healing tears. My former little girl self deserved all that praise and validation that my cold b@tch of a mother never once provided. I relished it, even though it came to me through me, through inner child work and EMDR. (There are exercises to do this. Those exercises are what felt so good.) Then and only then did I stop feeling my failed adult relationships were a reflection of my value. I could see them as they really were--poor choices of partners due to a desire to recreate that childhood dynamic. I could just let them go without feeling unloveable.

The healing of my inner child (it sounds so new agey that I almost hate saying it) allowed me to stop chasing people who treated me badly. I started to see that many friends and family loved how I loved them! They did not actually love (or ask about, care about, worry about, think about) me! That is a big difference, InkHulk. I began to see that I deserved better from people. All of my relationships changed when I healed my childhood self, not just the romantic ones.

I know you are seeing your WW clearly right now and want to get away from the R, but abandonment wounds cause us to weaken that resolve over time. Pretty soon we get anxious. "Don't leave me! Just fix yourself, but don't leave!" We feel so unloveable and alone, so we give too many chances. We feel too much empathy. We start to minimize their poor behavior. We come up with too many justifications for the disrespect we experience. Why do we do it? To heal this gaping wound in us that wants to be loved! If they leave, we are not loveable...again!!! So we keep trying to hang on. It is a pattern. I fear that if you do not work through your relationship with your father, you will keep backing off your boundaries with your WW, keep making excuses and offering additional chances. And your mental health will suffer badly as you continue to accept disrespectful and hurtful behavior from her. I see this a lot on SI, but you have already connected this to your childhood hurts. And you are right! So time to heal them.

invested years and countless tears

You must break this ^^^ pattern. For your own sanity.

Have you already read Journey from Abandonment to Healing by Susan Anderson? It's a road map to inner child work. I think you will see yourself. It is a really helpful book.

Wishing you all the best. You deserve it!

I don’t think she is a narc. I only think someone is one of those if they are diagnosed. They are actually rare and even more rare in women.

Agree a person needs to be diagnosed as my xWS was, but a person can have strong narcissistic tendencies and that is equally abusive. One who cannot feel shame because of fear that stems usually from a toxic upbringing is a major hallmark of narcissistic traits.

If Mrs. InkHulk is interested in SI's opinion on her behavior and thought patterns, she can always post on the Wayward Side. :-P

Breath holding contest, anyone?

Not that you need any validation from me, InkHulk, but let me just say again how great it is to your focus shift toward understanding your own feelings and motivations, instead of trying to figure out how to fix her.

I don’t need, but I like it.

OwningItNow, thank you, that was amazing and I think right on. My journey with EMDR started with my parents divorce. It was amazing to me how much weeping there was to be done over a 30 year aged wound. And I did indeed change my view of my inner child with respect to that. I was able to shift from the belief that I was responsible and not enough to save it to a belief that I was a kind hearted boy that tried to prop up my crumbling mother and it was wildly unfair, like trying to stop a train by parking on the tracks. And I have more work to do, and I’ll add that book to the list.

Thank you, I feel seen and cared for with that.

T/j
So sorry, InkHulk.

a person needs to be diagnosed as my xWS was

Ok, so if a person never sees a doctor and dies of cancer (based on their symptoms), did they have cancer or not? Because they are dead. So all signs point to something being really wrong! Not to mention I have had many doctors misdiagnose me, so even they don't know! I had MRSA eating up my arm, and the first doctor doubted it was MRSA. I still have a huge scar from waiting to see a second doctor. My friend saw three doctors before a proper Celiac diagnosis. At 50 years-old!

Most narcissists, as all the research says, will A. not go to therapy. Ever. And B. are highly skilled manipulators who enjoy playing they part when they actually do go to therapy (like MC). They fool lots of people.

My exBF is also a diagnosed narcissist, but I knew that looooong before his official diagnosis. (I think he has an antisocial personality diagnosis actually.)

It feels a little like shaming when people here say you "can't say they are a narcissist without a diagnosis," as if MY reality is being dictated by some internet strangers' perceptions of what I can/can't know. Thanks but no thanks. I'll define my own reality, if you don't mind. I've been told what to think all my life by narcissists, and I've learned to disregard people who try to control my own reality. I can define whatever I want.

Narcissists live and work among us. There are millions in the US alone. They are in our families. They don't go to IC because there is nothing wrong with them. Just ask them! So if someone feels they are dealing with strong narcissistic tendencies in their WS (whether personality disordered or just toxic--what's the flipping difference?), I believe them. It's not like the term is being written in the wayward's medical chart because we believe a poster on the internet! For Pete's sake! This is not a court of law, it's a support system. Let's not demean or gaslight people simply because their wayward hasn't sat down for five sessions with an experienced psychiatrist. Let people share their own reality.

(None of this was directed at you, Crazyblindsided. Not at all!!! It comes up here a lot, and I do not like internet strangers defining other people's realities. Narcissists are not apparitions. Knowing one is not a Big Foot sighting, for god's sake. These are real people who exist in our daily lives, and they f@ck things up for the rest of us. And I know you know that better than anyone, Crazyblindsided!!!)

I 100% agree OwningItNow that's why I made my post. The Narcissistic tendencies are bad enough and I believe there are so many walking amongst us and you don't really need a diagnosis to determine it. All you have to do is read their patterns.

I was lucky enough to get the chance diagnosis on my xWS. I knew something was terribly awry with him. I made him see a counselor which he balked at and him and his MOW made fun of me for it. But yeah you don't need a therapist or a diagnosis to determine the patterns and the tendencies. They can't change either. These patterns are ingrained in their personality. One would have to be really self-aware of their tendencies to change them but I think it is very rare.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 5:29 PM, Thursday, June 20th]

My money is still on "sociopath":

Not understanding the difference between right and wrong.
Not respecting the feelings and emotions of others.
Constant lying or deception.
Being callous.
Difficulty recognizing emotion.
Manipulation.
Arrogance.
Violating the rights of others through dishonest actions.
Impulsiveness.
Risk-taking.
Difficulty appreciating the negative aspects of their behavior.

People hear that word and immediately jump to Ted Bundy, but seriously, somewhere around 5% of the population has sociopathic tendencies. They're not all serial killers.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 6:54 PM, Thursday, June 20th]

Here, here OIN & CB…BRAVO!

I’m uncomfortable with mentioning NPD specifically for the divisive discussion that sometimes ensues. I don’t think it intentional…but the debate can feel somewhat dismissive of the experience. I usually just try to disregard and file it under the "when you know, you know" category. But it can still be frustrating because even as we say we can’t/aren’t diagnosing, even as we say the label is ultimately irrelevant, we still end up having our experiences relegated to some insurance billing code.

It’s a hard place to be - caught between everyone being a narc (easy cliche) and almost no one being a narc. Both equally dismissive.

(And I use the term "narc" specifically to indicate that I’m talking outside of the scope of a DSMV determination. It’s just convenient and connecting to have a word that comes close to describing an experience that all the words in the world cannot adequately describe.)

I agree, no need to dissect it any longer. Your flow chart does make sense and I think out of anyone the bs knows their ws. I mostly got sucked into the shame thing because I think there is valid places it creates many issues for people but I do agree some shame is healthy. And I was coming off that conversation in wayward where there was no shame to be found.

Perhaps I am just disappointed for you, for her. And while I have seen a lot of patterns on this site I recognize the deviation.

I stand by what I said about her clinging to her resentments, and that being in the way of her getting remorse but that’s just beating a dead horse and it’s fruitless.

But I can see your progress ink, in just these past six months. You are going to be fine and that in the end is all we could hope for here.

As for the narcissist conversation, all I am saying is I am not throwing out a diagnosis of it. It’s an over used term. And honestly I think ink would be suggesting it if it were true. I don’t like throwing around diagnosis words because it’s unhelpful and a lot of times none of us have even heard from the other person that we are talking about. That’s all.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:15 PM, Thursday, June 20th]

What I’m taking away from this conversation is that shame is necessary but dangerous, to be handled carefully and properly. When it arises it must be listened to and addressed. Keeping a long inventory of shame can be fatal to the soul.

Reminds me of one of my favorite passages from one of my favorite books, The Great Divorce by CS Lewis

Don’t you remember on earth—there were things too hot to touch with your finger but you could drink them all right? Shame is like that. If you will accept it—if you will drink the cup to the bottom—you will find it very nourishing: but try to do anything else with it and it scalds.

HellFire #71:

So, I stopped posting on your threads, IH. I saw everyone trying to turn what she was doing into a positive, and I'm just negative Nancy, shaking my head. laugh

Hey not me

I think so much of this post is spot-on though. I do agree with you @HellFire that there are a few fWS on here who seemed to be *projecting* themselves onto InkHulk's STBX-WW, attributing an effort on the part of STBX-WW that a few of us on here just did not see.

I think @InkHulk's STBX-WW *did* feel shame but her shame struck me about being all about HER--her lifestyle, her security getting to stay in a marriage, her self-image, as 'someone everyone loves' and also as a woman of the church perhaps? It hardly ever struck me as genuine pain or remorse for the pain that InkHulk and his children are facing. (I did find myself occasionally hoping against all hope though for IH's sake.) But, that is the sort of shame that ultimately does not do IH a damn bit of good.

ETA: My concern for you (IH) trying to unravel her (STBX-WW's) behaviour at this point is that you are not yet fully out of the weeds. There probably is still a danger (I am sensing) that you could be sucked back in., even if at this point it is a very *slight* danger. Yeah, you do deserve so much better than what STBX-WW is giving you.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:15 AM, Friday, June 21st]

I think so much of this post is spot-on though. I do agree with you @HellFire that there are a few fWS on here who seemed to be *projecting* themselves onto InkHulk's STBX-WW, attributing an effort on the part of STBX-WW that a few of us on here just did not see.

She doesn’t need it, but I’m going to stick up for hikingout anyway. While it’s true that right now I am not interested in psychoanalyzing my wife, that is a relatively new development and I have asked for help in this extensively in the past. I have a dearth of first person insight from my wife to go off and so I have turned heavily toward hikingout in particular, WOES to a lesser extent, to be a stand in and help me create a "good enough" story that I can live with and heal with. I cannot overemphasize how helpful that has been to me. And for them to allow vulnerability in their place of greatest shame, I ask for some reverence of that. Disagree, speak your own thoughts, that is always appreciated. But please don’t knock this element of the conversation. It was never going to be a perfect fit, but it was life giving to me.

I understand, and I do apologize. The important thing is whether YOU are getting what you need.

Not understanding the difference between right and wrong.
Not respecting the feelings and emotions of others.
Constant lying or deception.
Being callous.
Difficulty recognizing emotion.
Manipulation.
Arrogance.
Violating the rights of others through dishonest actions.
Impulsiveness.
Risk-taking.
Difficulty appreciating the negative aspects of their behavior.

Checkity check check check

My concern for you (IH) trying to unravel her (STBX-WW's) behaviour at this point is that you are not yet fully out of the weeds. There probably is still a danger (I am sensing) that you could be sucked back in., even if at this point it is a very *slight* danger. Yeah, you do deserve so much better than what STBX-WW is giving you.

I think this is fair. I think I’m like the hiker who got his arm caught under a falling boulder, had exhausted all reasonable hope for rescue and has decided to self amputate. I’ve decided, but have not yet gotten to the bone.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 2:08 AM, Friday, June 21st]