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I feel lost in this question of what is a marriage. On the one hand, it is a relationship that is supposed to bring about a net positive in a person’s life. Love, sex, friendship, these are elements that should characterize this relationship. And if the relationship doesn’t have these key elements, there are lots of fish in the sea, right?

But then marriage is also an institution. I come at this from a religious background and that carries a lot of weight for me, but I perceive that almost everyone would agree that marriage carries a weight beyond a relationship at the second date stage. We plan our futures together. We have children. We are legally entitled to each other’s money.

So what is this thing we call marriage? Is it an unnecessary label to a love relationship? Is it a stabilizing foundation for when love wavers? Is it a chain that makes people comfortable staying in their flaws because they have the security of vows? What is it when it’s been broken and violated?
I’m struggling with this right now. I’m struggling with how much I get to demand and when. I’d love to hear your thoughts, SI.

Great question.

I find the answers to be fairly simple and yet, it was a very complex path to get here.

As one wise SI member described to me — marriage, or any relationship we have — tends to be what we aim for.

If both people are wanting better and that’s the goal, then at least for me, it evolves and improves over time.

To get here, I eliminated demands, I eliminated taking, I eliminated compromise, I eliminated the institutional aspect - the duty to stay or to my vows or simply stay in good graces of my faith.

Compromise, as our MC explained, is a dirty word. Someone always loses in a compromise.

Same with demands.

I do share my needs, my wants and my desires and I do set boundaries.

The difference is not semantics, it allows for choices, room for each individual to choose to be all in.

We give to each other, we no longer take.

We replaced competition with consideration.

And we aim for grateful every day, even if we’re not perfect at being considerate all the time or get a bit selfish some days.

Competition for time, attention or whatever leans into expectations and then unmet expectations turn into the resentments that got is in trouble in the first place. The biggest change of our 36 years as a couple is we give instead of take — which is kind of how our relationship started.

I outlined what I needed at the start of R - the boundaries (if followed) that would make me feel safe, and the M I wanted and needed in order for me to help rebuild the M. In turn, she told me what she wanted from the M. Every day we aim for what the other wants and needs. Sometimes we miss, but we do tend to hit what we’re aiming for and have more good days than bad.

In that sense, my M is finally where it should have always been. Two people being kind, giving and loving, which strengthens the intimacy and friendship.

IMO, M definitely has an institutional aspect, but that's the outer shell. Within that shell, it's up to the partners to make it up as they go along.

I like having a partner, someone who has strengths and weaknesses different from mine and who can therefore enable us to make better decisions for ourselves as individuals and as a couple. Some aspects of being and living together are more important for me than for her. That can lead to conflict, but conflict between us usually improves the decision. In any case, different strengths, weaknesses, wants and don't-wants enable us to divide labor. But I think we are equal partners, because that's what we want, and that's what we set up.

Others have different views of M. Personally, I hate the patriarchal model - that requires things from me that I don't have, and it gives me some things I don't want. Others, however, think it's great. Who am I to tell them they have to do it my way? (And who are they to tell me I have to do it their way?)

But most of us can and must define what our relationships will be, if only by tacitly accepting societal conventions.

Ink, To R, you and your W have to define what your M will be, and I think you have to be pretty explicit about it. You have to deal as equals, IMO. You can both freely choose a p/matriarchal model, and one of you takes command, but you have to realize that at any moment, the captain can abdicate, and/or the crew member can withdraw consent to obey.

JMO.

There is an Asian saying for family - "we eat from the same rice bowl".

One of my mantras, said only to myself, is "four people, one room".

We have two kids. I have spent 26 years with my wife, and the two of us have spent 16 and 13 years respectively with our kids. We are all invested in that.

I think marriage is the commitment to work with what you have, together, even in the midst of change.

[This message edited by straightup at 9:11 AM, Saturday, January 13th]

Great question, I just had a similar conversation with my W recently. M itself is a relationship held together legally and for us religiously, 2 becomes one. My W and I have been, and are going through a storm in life with our Son, he has been hospitalized for almost 9 months. My W and I are a great team in his care, we have not been selfish in our roles dealing with our Son. There are times that I just can't do something and I tell her, "I need this handled", same for her there are times she is so stressed that she asks for me to take care of something, its great team work. I often wonder what this would look like had I gone through with D.

When I say that infidelity is the worse thing to ever happen to me, including losing my Dad. It's because infidelity should have never happened. We took vows for better or for worse, we were to be together until death do us part. We know in life that our Parents are going to pass away one day, we never want that day, but we know it's part of life. Infidelity was the self inflicted destruction of our M. It was never in the plan, or part of regular life, there was never the thought of "one day she will jeopardize our M and taint it forever". Everything else life throws at us is to be somewhat expected, not infidelity, it was never part of the plan.

One aspect that jumps out at me on this question comes from the historical teaching of the Church; marriage is a sacrament. Meaning, it is a relationship where the two parties have the chance to work out their spiritual health and journey together, the acquisition of virtues and the conquering of their passions. Love is the primary virtue but it's hard to get there without many of the others being worked on too.

It's sadly not something I actively think about often enough.

When I say that infidelity is the worse thing to ever happen to me, including losing my Dad. It's because infidelity should have never happened. We took vows for better or for worse, we were to be together until death do us part. We know in life that our Parents are going to pass away one day, we never want that day, but we know it's part of life. Infidelity was the self inflicted destruction of our M. It was never in the plan, or part of regular life, there was never the thought of "one day she will jeopardize our M and taint it forever". Everything else life throws at us is to be somewhat expected, not infidelity, it was never part of the plan.

Exactly! Losing my dad was the worst, most difficult thing that ever happened to me...until infidelity reared it's ugly head. I expressed that to WH in the same way. I knew I was going to lose my dad someday, moreso as time went on. He was close to 94-years old. He had cardiac issues. He had been in and out of the hospital for over a year. I knew it was coming. It was expected. It didn't make it any easier when it happened, but it's a natural part of life that we have no other choice than to live through and accept.

Learning that my husband was a cheater, that our marriage vows had been broken, that he wasn't the person I thought (or more likely hoped) he was caused my entire world to crash. It felt worse than when my I lost my dad. Which leads me to what I thought marriage was all about. To me, it's not only about loving the other person. It's about creating a true partnership wherein there are no secrets.

Our former MC described it like this: Marriage is an island surrounded by water. There is one bridge to land that can be raised and lowered. The key is that the bridge can only move if each pulls their lever. No one can come onto the island without knowledge and action from both people. You both pull your levers when you decide to have kids and bring them onto your island. Then the bridge goes back up until you both decide to let someone in. Allowing someone into your marriage doesn't just mean physically, like inviting someone into your home. It means revealing things to other people about your marriage without your spouse knowing. It means keeping secret friendships with people your spouse either hasn't met or doesn't approve of. It means exposing your spouse and your marriage to danger (either phyical or emotional) without them knowing. It means letting another person influence your thoughts and perceptions about your spouse. All the people we let in, including parents, siblings, friends, etc. require both spouses to pull the lever. That doesn't mean we will know every single person our spouse meets. I've never met many of WH's co-workers and he's never met many of mine. But those people are not in our marriage. The second either one of us decides to open up to those people about our relationship, we're "letting them into" our marriage and both spouses must agree.

met a certain co-worker several years back and basically snuck in and pulled my lever when I wasn't looking. He purposely lowered the bridge and let that person into our marriage by talking, meeting secretly and having sex. That person inserted herself squarly into the middle of our marriage by giving him her opinions on what he should and should not accept from me. He allowed her into our marriage and allowed her to stay. In the past,he questioned why he can't "vent" to other people when something is bothering him. I explained that it's a betrayal against me, even if it doesn't involve sex. You have a problem with me? Come and talk to me. But that doesn't seem to give him the sympathy and validation he craves. Talking to me requires work and compromise. "Venting" to other women is more fun because he gets to play the victim. It gives him a rise. And sometimes they think his marriage must be so bad that they're helping by giving him sex.

I think marriage should be about protecting each other. Protect your love. Protect your vows. Protect the convenant you made. Keep people off your island unless you both agree. Cheaters don't do that. They're too selfish.

For me, it’s a business partnership with an agreement to pursue shared goals. Ideally, it involves friendship, love. sex, and exclusivity as well. Obviously all of us here lacked the exclusivity for a time, but in my case at least, the agreed upon goals were pursued and met. Similar to business, sometimes your partner betrays you and you’re forced to find a way to move on and trust again or you break up the business. I think that’s why I never felt my marriage was a farce. It existed. It was always limping along and many elements were beneficial to me. Yes, my partner betrayed me in a cruel, painful way, but the business still existed.

you and your W have to define what your M will be, and I think you have to be pretty explicit about it.

I think what Sisoon says is the most accurate. I also felt the need to address this idea during recovery. I would add that I think the definition or need or purpose of the M may even change over time; I don't view marriage the same way I did 25 years ago when I got married.

I am a realist. Reality--telling it like it is--does not bother me no matter how harsh. When people say I look good for my age, I take that as a compliment and do not feel devalued that they mentioned "my age." When someone asks how old I am or how much I weigh, I may laugh but I'll probably tell you. If someone wants to know how much I make or what the worst thing is that I've ever done, I am very likely going to speak honestly (depending on the asker) and own my truths. When I talk about this time in my life, I say things like, "I'm running down the other side of the hill now!" Or "No, 50 is not the new 40. 50 is still 50."

But...

There are a whole lotta people that cringe when I say these things, people who are horrified at "less than proper" etiquette and my talk of death. They consider this level of honesty to be bad manners or negative talk. Do we all need to agree? Nope. In fact, you are never going to get everyone to agree on these big concepts. People just see things differently.

My realistic self says that marriage is imperfect and messy. The romance comes and goes, and often it just goes. Marriage is a family contract and a financial contract. It should serve both people in whatever way suits them--romantically, familially, financially, and nobody else should sit in judgment (because your marriages don't look that appealing to me either). A marriage--what is acceptable, forgivable, functional--is as unique as the two people in it.

The only people that need to feel satisfied with the way you see marriage, InkHulk, are you and your spouse. Nobody else's opinion really matters. What do you need it to be to be satisfied?

This is my take on it.

Marriage was, at one time, a contractual obligation necessary for survival. Men needed women to propagate and women needed men for safety. Each partner fulfilled a role that the other could not. As a result, a mutual interdependence was achieved. If there was love and affection, then you hit the jackpot.

Now, in a postmodern consumer society, one in which very few of us experience any real hardship or significant risk, survival is not the issue. Rather, we look for self-actualization. We want to be happy and fulfilled, or more accurately, we want to FEEL happy and fulfilled. Just like the advertisers have led us to believe that purchasing products will make us happy, we have applied that thinking to all aspects of our lives. Bored at your job? Get a new one. Feeling humdrum? Go on a vacation. Partner not exciting you? Switch it up and find another.

Thus, people have become objects. They are commodities and their only value lay in what they can do for us, not what we can do for them. Our happiness is paramount, even if it comes at the expense of those around us. And let's face it. If they really loved us, would they want us to be happy?

My WW once asked me why I loved her. Mind you, unbeknownst to me, she was neck deep in infidelity. I answered, because I have chosen to love you. I made a vow and stitched my life to yours. For me, love is a choice that leads to a feeling. I cannot turn my love on and off.

She had no idea what I was talking about.

[This message edited by Justsomeguy at 10:34 PM, Saturday, January 13th]

The only people that need to feel satisfied with the way you see marriage, InkHulk, are you and your spouse. Nobody else's opinion really matters. What do you need it to be to be satisfied?

Well, I’ve written long ago what I believe I need, but as I don’t feel like I’ve ever been in a genuinely healthy marriage, I’m sort of guessing. But to put it back out there:

Vulnerability and humility

Deep answers to why

Empathy uninterrupted by shame

Passion, including sex

The full truth, to my satisfaction

Respect

Grading this list, I am doing well on the "full truth line", but translating that into a long term relationship this probably morphs into I need to be able to trust her. It’s really sinking in to me how deeply dishonest she is, it’s terribly jarring.

Empathy is meh, though the shame shit storms have abated.

Have some pretty good answers to why, the same generic bullshit plastered all over this board. What a fucking shame.

But the other three, they are in the trash. While it’s not surprising that passion would struggle in this environment, intentionality and effort in that department are what I’ve asked for and she won’t. There are times of vulnerability, but she is still showing no signs of humility. And conflicts in parenting continue to throw disrespect in my face.

I’m deeply struggling today, if that isn’t obvious in my original post. I’ve fought so damn hard in this thing. An incredibly high view of marriage has been part of that. Add that to a dread of divorce from my own FOO issues, and coming to a decision on when to stop is just excruciating for me. And she has done work, I can’t expect it all to come at once. But I’m tired my friends, and I’m losing hope. And I know that if I make the choice to D that my experience and understanding of marriage will massively change. I really don’t know what will replace it, I do appreciate all your responses.

Sorry to hear you are in a rough place.

It’s hard.

Can you tell her you’re struggling and ask for her help?

Can you share one or two things she is doing which you appreciate?

[This message edited by straightup at 2:54 AM, Sunday, January 14th]

Ever the optimist, aren’t you, friend?

And she has done work, I can’t expect it all to come at once. But I’m tired my friends, and I’m losing hope. And I know that if I make the choice to D that my experience and understanding of marriage will massively change. I really don’t know what will replace it, I do appreciate all your responses.

To answer your original question marriage is a legal construct that grants the members certain legal rights and roles. Outside of that, it's what the partners decide it is. The more religious of us generally consider it much more sacred then the more secular. It also doesn't guarantee that the partners are in agreement as to what marriage is. As you have already found out the hardest way. I hope your find peace whichever road you decide to travel. You've already given your WW more grace than most would consider. It's past the time for her to step up and carry more of the load.

I’m really sorry you’re in this place.

I’m in reconciliation and am in a pretty good place, all things considered, but for what it’s worth, my understanding of marriage seems to have shifted for good. Actually, it hasn’t so much shifted as just melted into thin air, leaving not a rack behind.

Fortunately I think it’s possible to have a healthy relationship even if you’re like me and can no longer wrap your head around a grand conception of marriage. In my own life, I find myself focusing on the present state of my relationship with my husband, trying to be intentional about it in the day to day.

It sounds like your day to day isn’t working, despite Herculean effort on your part. A grand view of marriage isn’t going to fix that. And yes, your understanding of marriage might shift more or evaporate altogether if you get a divorce, but that doesn’t mean there’s no hope for a healthy relationship down the road.

I am so very sorry things are so hard. Peace and grace and wisdom to you as you figure out what to do.

IH -

Very sorry to hear of incremental progress at best and some levels of obstinance at worst.

The conflicts in parenting stuff can wipe out a much healthier M, much less one that is trying to rebuild. Pre-A and post-A, my wife and I had some very fundamental differences on how to raise our sons, and likely our biggest issue until the confession of her A. Our nest was mostly empty (our youngest moved back in for a time during the first 24-months after dday) and that helped our R work.

Weird thing is, for us, despite the arguments about the best ‘how’ for our kids, it turned out BOTH of our parenting styles/examples proved to be helpful. Our sons are pretty smart, they took the best elements from both of us and turned out amazing. Somehow they got little or none of our worst ideas or qualities.

As to the humility, I can only guess from this distance.

Truth is self evident, there isn’t any way for a WS to package their destructive choices into something defensible. For my wife there was a great fear she would only ever be seen as her worst choices, her worst days, etc., without a chance to be viewed as an equal in the M ever again. So in my case, it wasn’t a lack of humility, it was a defeatist mantra, "no matter what I do, I can’t ever make it right, so why try?"

And she was correct. Nothing she can do will change the damage done. However, I learned to respect that she tries to do that anyway. This maybe is the step your wife is missing — she needs to reach out beyond her defensive mindset.

No one WANTS to be the villain in their M or of their family, so that could be part of the stubbornness you’re running in to.

Maybe she can’t see that you are willing to see the good in her, if she got off the bench and back into the R — definitely a level of Catch-22 there.

I would do what I did in my last desperate hours before my R turned around: Ask her what type of M she wants and how she expects to get that based on where the M is now.

I expect that you’ve already asked that, and maybe MC has too — but ask it again, with the emphasis on the fact you feel like you are out of energy to save it all yourself.

I have been thinking about this very same question. I wish I would have asked my spouse this question before marriage. His answer may have influenced whether or not I proceeded with the marriage.

Ink,

I think your struggle may be wrapped up in your desire for R. My reco is:

Reframe your thinking.

If I'm right, if you focus on your healing and not on the outcome, you may do yourself a gigantic favor.

I view D as a result of 2 people just not fitting well enough together, no matter how much one or both want to. They decide what constitutes 'well enough.' Partner leaves? That's one scenario. Partner leaves and wants to come back? That's very different.

This isn't a matter of 'finding' or 'taking back' your power. It's using the power you don't totally realize you have to further your self interests.

Accept your imperfections. Accept your inability to predict your future. Accept that recovery from being betrayed takes longer than you think it should. Take as much pressure off yourself as you can.

My bet is that the decision will come to you. When it comes may not be important.

(signed) sisoon, wearing his Zen apprentice hat

Going to agree with what has just been said, marriage is what the two of you wish for it to be. The harder part is can those things match up enough that both people are satisfied?

I like this list:

Vulnerability and humility

Deep answers to why

Empathy uninterrupted by shame

Passion, including sex

The full truth, to my satisfaction

Respect

The scope of this is reasonable. I would say that my husband could have written this when deciding on reconciling. I think there was an unintentional report card running in his head for a long time.

It took after he cheated for me to understand it.

All marriages have moments or days where we are not harmonious with one another. But after betrayal, your lizard brain is weighing risks. The simply weigh more than ever and you are going to be more vigilant over them than ever.

I am not dismissing your need to have this list met. I am simply saying sometimes things feel like a larger catastrophe or we may even find things that were once tenable to suddenly being untenable. It’s part of the consequences - everything is broken to differing degrees.

So I am going to use the example of passion (and I know that doesn’t just mean sex, but I am going to mostly refer to sex because it’s a bit more tangible)). Prior to my affair I would say I initiated maybe 15 percent of the time but was receptive 95 percent of the time. I don’t know why, but initiating doesn’t come natural to me. I initiate affection quite often, maybe more than he does but when it comes to sex I would like for it to naturally evolve rather than someone stake a claim on what’s about to happen. Hard to describe.

Anyway, after my affair I read here from many of the Bh’s that I should be initiating all the time. I did as they said and it provided an ongoing positive reaction from my h. But as time went along, it became apparent to me that it was inauthentic behavior on my part, and probably a band aid for his.

Not because I didn’t want my husband or love my husband. It’s several things- the flow just wasn’t there - I missed having my reaction to him come from his reaction to me. Without that element my desire went down. My lack of healing went hand in hand with that lack of authenticity. In fact healing looked far more like finding the courage to be myself in that area. I had to put away my fear of losing him and try to create something organic between us once again.

Sex is very complicated especially after an affair. For both the ws and the bs.I like that you use the word Passion. That is exactly the element that was missing. But passion for me requires emotional connection, I needed to become vulnerable and so did he. I needed to take the risk of being me and still be accepted and loved. He needed time to sort out quite a bit as well. But it took us both walking towards each other for the passion to really come back. One person can’t really do that on their own.

The emotional connection that came from that struggle of transitioning to a new normal put us in the path to restoring it. Of course this was interrupted because that is about when I found out he was having his own affair.

So at that point I went to initiating zero and being receptive very very little. I felt no hope that we should be working in our marriage, yet I had been on a three year trajectory with almost that as a single focus.

The part that sucks about having lists is we often still love this person that has hurt us so deeply. Our lists give us a logical thing to focus on. But there is no logic to how you restore passion after an adultery. Or trust. Or love. And on paper almost any list I could come up with for us to stay together felt weak. It took two people who kept working towards giving each other grace.

The question of what is marriage is a good one. I think the answer is two people who are committed to each other and who put each others well-being as important as their own.

An affair blows that all to hell. For those who choose to reconcile, marriage then becomes years of a nuanced, long term struggle where one person has to go on a journey to restore the idea that they will put the others well being as important as their own, while trying to figure out what allowed them to do such an awful thing so they can fix themselves. The other has to restore their ability to trust their own intuition while processing a brain altering trauma. And they both have to do the difficult work of not allowing this to define who they are. It’s takes years, and with no guarantee of whether it will even work.

As for the why, there is never going to be a satisfying answer. The reason is because there isn’t going to be one that is good enough for what hell it’s put you through. It comes full circle- after someone traumatized you to the point of this kind of betrayal- nothing they say or will add up to that kind of weight to make the scales of justice balance. No restitution will fill the gigantic gaping hole it cut in your heart.

I tried to pay. I paid in sex, in love bombing, in serving. But the only thing that ever got me anywhere was to stop being afraid to be authentic even if it sometimes was the opposite of what he thought I should be doing to win him back.

And when we would fight, the relationship would seem especially unredeemable. After his affair, I often would think about divorce with every fight, which was daily for a while.

It’s hard to say that it just takes time because everyone’s results can be so much different from one another. Time doesn’t mean ultimately staying together. But I do know for the couples who are happily reconciled on this board, it took many years. Year two is disillusionment for many of the bs. So you are in good company. As for your wife, difficult for any of us to have a firm grip based on a list, even a very good list. And that is some of the torment. Is this pain and struggle going to be worth it? There is no crystal ball if the marriage dies, survives or thrives. I am pretty sure it will always be hard to say the pain was worth it, however you might find enough piles of things that are worthwhile to let it be.

Sissoon said it best: better to focus on the healing than the marriage. I think this goes for both ws and bs. The health of a marriage is limited to the healthiness of the individuals in it. That being said, you are always pretty balanced in what you share here, and I see that as very healthy. I don’t have enough insight on you wife to say the same. For certain, whomever focuses on their own healing may find much more in the “worthwhile pile” regardless of the outcome of their marriage.

Sorry it’s been a bad day.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:32 AM, Monday, January 15th]

I think "marriage" is so seriously misunderstood in our society.
We might get married in a church, but we divorce in a courthouse. That’s because marriage per se is a contract, and like all contracts it’s one where the people entering it can agree on terms and conditions before signing on the dotted line. As with many contracts there are some given expectations, but what would be seen as variance from those expectations could be written into the contract.
For example: if I signed a contract for services for a certain payment, I would expect said payment in standard currency and not goats or chicken, unless the contract had specifically stated that in return for the services I got a goat. What the contract might not specify is that the payment should be in dollars, because that’s simply assumed. Just like fidelity and monogamy is expected in a marriage contract without it maybe being stated directly (the forsake each other is not part of the civil process…).
I think we have this romanticized view on marriage that we sign the contract without ever considering what is stated in it – directly or implied – sort of like when we click on agreements when downloading software or signing into social media.

What’s the benefit of the contract? Well… it formalizes a relationship. In one swift blow we can formalize a lot of issues, factors and nuances. Things like what’s fair if one partner stays at home to raise the kids, enabling the other to earn an income. What financial and legal obligations can one enter into that might affect or impact the other. Who get’s to decide if the other is operated on in an emergency. Who decides end-of-life treatment if the other is in a coma. Who gets to live in the house and access the savings if the other is hit by a meteor…

I guess we could all omit getting married and call it a dated institution and all that, but it would be totally stupid and reckless to enter a relationship as complex as one that two people enter into with the intent of it lasting their lifetime without some form of contract. Without some form of knowing what happens if the other simply decides one day to gift the marital home to a cult, take the kids to get tattooed or whatever. Or… where you will live if your spouse whose name is on everything simply gives up on your meatloaf and kicks you out.

I guess we could have an attorney at-call that arranges what credit cards are in your name and what debts are joint and adds amendments to the original non-marital cohabitation contract, but… for most of us the convenience of plain-old marriage is probably the best bet.

So… Marriage isn’t really romantic.
This is why marriages were arranged for centuries, and still are in some cultures. As my Indian coworker once said: who could have your interests better at heart than your mom when finding a good spouse? About two thirds of those reading this and have an opinion probably hate the present King of England for marrying the woman he wanted to marry all along – because the other marriage was arranged within the boundaries of what was considered acceptable.

Don’t get me wrong! I think it’s always better if the people getting married love each other, they definitely need to like each other and to respect each other. Love, desire and all that… factors that make a good marriage but can be found and maintained in a relationship.

I think we have missed that mark – the covenant of marriage – for too long, and focus on the romantic Hollywood-produced image of marriage. An image that doesn’t show sleepless nights, working 80 hours to pay bills and trying to find romance with a partner stinking of kids poo and bile.
It’s evident on this site where many posters proudly state that they have control over their finances, or that they pay from THEIR money for joint bills… When the legislation in their area probably states that the mortgage is joint, and the utility-company wont only turn off the power on the lamp on his side of the bed. Where posters moan that the spouse is getting half of everything despite never having "worked" – when raising 3 kids is a full-time job…
No – I’m not advocating completely combined finances, but it doesn’t make financial sense for one spouse to have cash while the other pays interest on debt, knowing that IF this ends in D both the cash and the debt will be seen as marital.

I sometimes wonder about immensely stupid traditions, like the ring costing three months wages, father-of-the-groom expected to pay for stuff, demanding all grooms and bridesmaids are dressed up in matching outfits at a destination wedding where the pre-practice, practice and final dinner is lobster with gold-dust salt… Starting the couple that don’t realize what CONTRACT they just signed deep in debt. Especially considering financial issues and debt are more common causes for divorce than infidelity…
Average wedding costs over 33000… That’s the down-payment on a small house.
Legally – you are just as married for the license fee and a pizza as you are for a week in Hawaii with an Elvis impersonator doing the service with your BFF’s all dressed in Dior dresses.

Nah… Sorry for the pessimistic post. But at heart I so strongly support marriage.
I’m rather late to the process per se. My wife and I married to celebrate over a decade of being together. We still say we have been together from day 1 – and that’s over 30 years. The marriage didn’t make us love each other more – well… it did because it confirmed the commitment we knew we had. But the marriage gave us a clearer stance on assets and debts, the right to live in the estate if one of us passed, a clearer stance on legal commitments and obligations.
We still celebrate our anniversary, and I carry my ring proudly – something I don’t do with other legal contracts I have entered. But marriage is a business contract. Your selection of spouse might be based on other factors, but marrying them is simply business.